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Prophecy, Free Will, Foreknowledge? - 3/7/2010 10:19:49 AM
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benjoseph
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
This gets right to the heart of the major controversy in Protestantism - how do we reconcile a Sovereign God who knows everything and the free-will of mankind whom He created to respond in Love. Several "theories" of God's Foreknowledge, Middle Knowledge, and Present Knowledge have been developed over the centuries in an effort to understand at the finite human level how God "knows" things and events that have not yet happened for us yet He allows us to "make choices" that produce those occurrences. It's really a fascinating subject and if no one else starts a new thread by this afternoon, I will myself.
< Message edited by benjoseph -- 3/7/2010 10:29:35 AM >
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RE: Prophecy - 3/7/2010 10:26:00 AM
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benjoseph
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I believe, since the future doesn't exist, there is no future for God to "know".
If the future existed then God would know it.
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RE: Prophecy - 3/7/2010 10:38:46 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benjoseph
I believe, since the future doesn't exist, there is no future for God to "know".
Then what is your take on the Book of Revelations?
Thanks
RC
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Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
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RE: Prophecy - 3/7/2010 11:43:52 AM
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benjoseph
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: benjoseph
I believe, since the future doesn't exist, there is no future for God to "know".
Then what is your take on the Book of Revelations?
Thanks
RC
Good question. That's what I'd like to know. I don't know about pre- and post-millenialism or preterism. I haven't studied these views enough to come to a conclusion about that. Seems to me like some of it already happened and some of it did not happen yet.
I believe the terrifying things that God says will happen, surely will happen unless people get right with him.
My understanding of prophecy from the 'creation and time' thread may help give you an idea of how I would approach the prophecy in the revelation.quote:
Prophecy is not a form of divination as God doesn't look into a crystal ball (so to speak) to see an existing future. (Exodus 13:17, Luke 18:8)
Prophecy is when God announces his own plans (Genesis 18:17, Amos 3:7). Prophecy can include descriptions of our anticipated behavior (Mark 14:30) and the behavior of God's enemies (1 Samuel 23:12, Luke 22:31). God is capable of discovering the character and behavior of people (Genesis 18:21, Genesis 22:12). and people can even behave differently than God has expected or prophesied (Genesis 6:7, 1Samuel 23:13, Isaiah 5:4, Mark 14:18). God's plans are often contingent upon our behavior (Jeremiah 18:8, Jeremiah 18:10, Jonah 2:10) as God has the ability and the authority to change his plans in response to our behavior (Jeremiah 18:6, Joel 2:13, Jonah 3:10, Jonah 4:2).
There are also certain things that I believe God is not willing to change his mind about - like judging the earth, punishing the wicked, and blessing the righteous.
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RE: Prophecy - 3/7/2010 1:01:27 PM
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Ps103
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Do you believe God is omniscient?
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RE: Prophecy - 3/7/2010 1:40:11 PM
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benjoseph
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
Do you believe God is omniscient?
Yes I do. That's why I said "If the future existed then God would know it."
God can be omniscient and not "know" the future if the future does not actually exist. Similarly God does not know what the tooth fairy's middle name is. He is omniscient but the tooth fairy simply doesn't exist.
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RE: Prophecy - 3/7/2010 2:45:10 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Then what is your take on the Book of Revelations?
God, being omnipotent, is capable of declaring what he will bring about, and by his power, ensure that it will come about. Doing this does not require his explicit foreknowledge of the event.
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RE: Prophecy - 3/7/2010 3:41:06 PM
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Saved34
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quote:
Yes I do. That's why I said "If the future existed then God would know it."
God can be omniscient and not "know" the future if the future does not actually exist.
[Edited by moderator - personal attack] God knows the future down to the minute detail. If he so chooses he can do whatever it is he so desires. He predicted to the minute detail what Messiah would do, he predicts down to the detail the eternal destiny of satan and his angels, he decrees a thing and it is a guarantee to happen. Is there anything impossible to God? He is God, you cannot grasp him through the wisdom of man.
Jer 32:17 'Ah, Lord GOD! It is you who have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and by your outstretched arm! Nothing is too hard for you.
Jer 32:27 Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?
Luk 18:27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
The loftiest of your thoughts still fall light years short of comparison to him. Your mind is incapable of explaining him in scientific terms.
Job 11:7 Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection?
Job 11:8 It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?
Job 11:9 The measure thereof is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea.
Job 11:10 If he cut off, and shut up, or gather together, then who can hinder him?
Job 11:11 For he knoweth vain men: he seeth wickedness also; will he not then consider it?
Job 11:12 For vain man would be wise, though man be born like a wild ass's colt.
< Message edited by ta_mosquito -- 3/10/2010 7:46:14 PM >
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RE: Prophecy, Free Will, Foreknowledge? - 3/7/2010 4:50:22 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
Good question. That's what I'd like to know. I don't know about pre- and post-millenialism or preterism.
For the moment, forget about pre-, post- or amillenialism or preterism.
RC asked you about the book of Revelation because you said the future does not exist. Well the book of Revelation tells you that it does exist down to the minutest detail, in the mind of God. Just believe it.
How thankful Christians can be that the Lord God Almighty know the end from the beginning and there are no "accidents" with Him.
He knows every star by name, He has numbered every hair on every head that ever existed, and He knows absolutely every thought and every motive of absolutely every individual who has ever lived or will live.
Great is the LORD, and greatly to praised, and HIS GREATNESS IS UNSEARCHABLE!
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Prophecy, Free Will, Foreknowledge? - 3/7/2010 5:23:47 PM
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MrFribbles
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[Edited by moderator - removed response to portion in another post that has been removed]
Ezra,
quote:
Well the book of Revelation tells you that it does exist down to the minutest detail, in the mind of God. Just believe it.
If it is explained down to the minutest detail, why are there still such violent disagreements about it?
Also - why does God declaring what he will do in specific situations the future necessitate his exhaustive foreknowledge of all events?
< Message edited by ta_mosquito -- 3/10/2010 7:48:41 PM >
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RE: Prophecy, Free Will, Foreknowledge? - 3/7/2010 6:25:33 PM
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gralan
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Joined: 1/29/2010
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Perhaps there is some confusion about what the Bible teaches.
The Bible tells us:
ROM8.28 - And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
.29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
.30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
(NASB)
Foreknew - proginóskó = to know beforehand
predestined - proorizó = to predetermine
Since God is not bound in time, which is a measurement of the decay of matter and the rotation of planets, God we are told in Isaiah knows the end from the beginning.
We do not.
Now Paul was plain in writing God knew beforehand who God was going to predetermine were going to be effectively called, conformed into the image of Jesus the Word of God/Logos/Eternal Lord and Savior, those who were to be justified and glorified.
That is what Paul wrote. You do not have to believe Paul. I do believe Paul.
I do believe Paul because I believe what Paul wrote was what God wanted him to write, and that God is at least as capable as we humans are in communicating with others.
If you do not believe the Bible, that is your choice. If you choose to trust your judgment over God's judgment, well I hope that works out for you.
The Bible says that will not work out well.
But, a person can believe what they wish.
Just please do not call yourself a Christian if you do not wish to be a disciple of Jesus Christ in accordance with the rule of faith and the Holy Scriptures.
Call yourself what ever you want, but Christian is a name already spoken for and it has certain parameters or boundaries for essential beliefs. One of those is believing that God has indeed spoken, and that the record of God's word to Humankind is the Bible Old and New Testaments.
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BTh student TGSAT
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The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever...
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RE: Prophecy, Free Will, Foreknowledge? - 3/7/2010 7:15:53 PM
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benjoseph
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One of the best things about the future not being set in stone is that the whole world could humble itself and turn to God. Jesus once asked, "when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" Imagine if there came a time when we could ask, "when the Son of man cometh, shall he find sin on the earth?"
It would be so good if the whole world repented. I think about how pleasing it would be for God when the Lord returns.
"..we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily." Colossians 1:28
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RE: Prophecy, Free Will, Foreknowledge? - 3/7/2010 7:53:20 PM
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gralan
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yes, I can see the idealist side to that.
but Jesus asked whether he would find faith. That is the question each of us answers by our faith in God.
God is not a person for us to debate whether we like or approve of God's qualities, character or actions. I pray you will find peace with God who is.
_____________________________
suffering servant, gralan,
BTh student TGSAT
//TrinityTheology.org/
//freecourses.trinitytheology.org/
The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever...
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RE: Prophecy - 3/7/2010 8:19:12 PM
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jjbird
Posts: 828
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: benjoseph
I believe, since the future doesn't exist, there is no future for God to "know".
Then what is your take on the Book of Revelations?
Thanks
RC
Revelation not Revelations 
And what makes you think Revelation is about the future?
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RE: Prophecy - 3/7/2010 8:35:49 PM
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gralan
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God, in order to be God, created everything that is outside of God.
God did not cause God's own existence, as a Necessary Being God has no contingency nor any potentialities. God is.
God is not bound by the created order. The reverse is true. The created order is bound by its Creator.
Time, outside of human existence, has no measurable meaning and cannot be proven otherwise. Therefore to argue about God not knowing the future is to state that God being outside of time doesn't know what is happening in the created order. As such God would be contingent upon events occurring outside of God's control. As such God could not be a Necessary Being. Therefore God cannot have created.
This is antithetical to Bible teaching and faith in the true God since the beginning of the called people in Abraham. Thus it is not only illogical, it is outside of the Pale of orthodoxy. Perhaps that is a term some may wish to look up.
Since God actually is, to be a Christian means that one cannot logically accept the proposal that God does not know the future.
Again, if you want to accept that as the basis of your knowledge and beliefs you are welcome to ignore God's revelation and do your own thing.
Just be aware, those who wish to not live submitted to God will get their desire. It is not what I would wish for anyone.
Now, this conversation has be ongoing at least 800 years, regarding God and time and creation specifically. Perhaps some study would help in order to address this in a way that is consistent with real knowledge, at least with the right vocabulary.
Alvin Plantinga and William Lane Craig are among those leading thinkers today that believe that not only does God know the future, but God knew before Creation every possibility of how things could turn out and we are living in God's choice as the best one. The meaning? God knows how things would turn out if God acted differently. God then is not enslaved by God's creation. This is a very Biblical idea.
If you wish to discuss Christian Philolosphy I'd be glad to. But let's just make sure we all know that is what we are doing.
< Message edited by gralan -- 3/7/2010 8:53:50 PM >
_____________________________
suffering servant, gralan,
BTh student TGSAT
//TrinityTheology.org/
//freecourses.trinitytheology.org/
The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever...
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RE: Prophecy - 3/7/2010 8:53:51 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2391
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benjoseph
If the future existed then God would know it.
1Ki 6:12 [Concerning] this house which "thou" art in building, <
if .......thou wilt walk in my statutes, and execute my judgments, and keep all my commandments to walk in them;
then.....
will I perform my word with thee, which I spake unto David thy father:
God has an alternate future for every decision we make,
Otherwise.... our future already rests with our word... rather than… in His
Mat 12:37
John 12:35 Then Jesus said unto them,
Yet a little while is the light with you.
Walk while ye have the light,
lest darkness come upon you :
for he that walketh in darkness.... knoweth not..... whither he goeth
As opposed to knowing whither he goeth....
As God…."will "perform" His word with thee,
= 1Ki 6:12 [Concerning] this house which ..."thou" =(ME MYSELF AND I) art in building, <
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
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RE: Prophecy - 3/7/2010 8:54:16 PM
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jjbird
Posts: 828
Joined: 5/20/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benjoseph
I believe, since the future doesn't exist, there is no future for God to "know".
If the future existed then God would know it.
The future exists and God knows it. He always has.
There is plenty and plenty of Messianic passages prophesying His coming in the OT that were written WAY WAY WAY before He came to us!
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RE: Prophecy - 3/7/2010 10:45:21 PM
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benjoseph
Posts: 205
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Hi LoyalGypsy,
I didn't understand something you said. Would you explain it for me?
quote:
God has an alternate future for every decision we make,
Otherwise.... our future already rests with our word... rather than… in His
Mat 12:37
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RE: Prophecy - 3/7/2010 10:47:19 PM
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drmark
Posts: 5613
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gralan
God, in order to be God, created everything that is outside of God. = I think you really mean He created everything that is not God. Nothing is actually "outside of God" since He created reality.
God did not cause God's own existence, as a Necessary Being God has no contingency nor any potentialities. God is.
God is not bound by the created order. The reverse is true. The created order is bound by its Creator.
Time, outside of human existence, has no measurable meaning and cannot be proven otherwise. Therefore to argue about God not knowing the future is to state that God being outside of time doesn't know what is happening in the created order. As such God would be contingent upon events occurring outside of God's control. As such God could not be a Necessary Being. Therefore God cannot have created. = But this only addresses the present. "What is happening" is only the present, not the future.
This is antithetical to Bible teaching and faith in the true God since the beginning of the called people in Abraham. Thus it is not only illogical, it is outside of the Pale of orthodoxy. Perhaps that is a term some may wish to look up.
Since God actually is, to be a Christian means that one cannot logically accept the proposal that God does not know the future. = There is no Scripture that specifically requires acceptance of the doctrine of God's Foreknowledge in order to be saved.
Again, if you want to accept that as the basis of your knowledge and beliefs you are welcome to ignore God's revelation and do your own thing.
Just be aware, those who wish to not live submitted to God will get their desire. It is not what I would wish for anyone. = Again, I do not see how acceptance of dynamic omniscience means that a person does not sincerely wish to live submitted to God.
Now, this conversation has be ongoing at least 800 years, regarding God and time and creation specifically. Perhaps some study would help in order to address this in a way that is consistent with real knowledge, at least with the right vocabulary. = Actually, I think these issues first began to be considered by theologians in Augustine's time period. That would be >1500 years ago.
Alvin Plantinga and William Lane Craig are among those leading thinkers today that believe that not only does God know the future, but God knew before Creation every possibility of how things could turn out and we are living in God's choice as the best one. The meaning? God knows how things would turn out if God acted differently. God then is not enslaved by God's creation. This is a very Biblical idea. = I believe Platinga and Craig subscribe to a form of Molinism called "compatibilist middle knowledge". I disagree that it's "a very Biblical idea" although the Bible provides significant indirect support for this concept.
If you wish to discuss Christian Philolosphy I'd be glad to. But let's just make sure we all know that is what we are doing. = I wonder, gralan, if it's really fair to call this discussion "Christian philosophy". It's true that we are Christians discussing an esoteric philosophical issue called "time". But the fact is that all of these "theories" are little more than puny human efforts to try and reconcile the tension between God's Sovereignty and mankind's free will. At some point, faith must kick in and we will say with Job - "Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know".
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Prophecy - 3/7/2010 10:57:36 PM
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benjoseph
Posts: 205
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
The future exists and God knows it. He always has.
There is plenty and plenty of Messianic passages prophesying His coming in the OT that were written WAY WAY WAY before He came to us! I was going to ask you how God revealing his plans could mean that the future exists, but I think it's more important to point out that the statement "the future exists" is incoherent. I don't think it is possible to prove a statement that has no meaning.
I do believe in Messianic prophecies.
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RE: Prophecy - 3/7/2010 11:00:35 PM
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drmark
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quote:
I do believe in Messianic prophecies. So how did God know to share these authoritative and inerrant truths with His prophets if the future did not exist for Him to know it?
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Prophecy - 3/7/2010 11:09:04 PM
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benjoseph
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I think the phrase "God is outside of time" is also incoherent.
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RE: Prophecy - 3/7/2010 11:16:13 PM
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benjoseph
Posts: 205
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
I do believe in Messianic prophecies. So how did God know to share these authoritative and inerrant truths with His prophets if the future did not exist for Him to know it? I think the bible teaches that God decided to tell the prophets what he had decided to do. "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." Amos 3:7
If I told you I was going to cook supper, you would probably not be surprised if I actually did what I said I was going to do. You wouldn't think I had seen the future. How much less a surprise if the almighty God does what he said he would do?
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RE: Prophecy - 3/7/2010 11:28:59 PM
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benjoseph
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I do not believe time is limiting. I think it is the possibility of change. I think this possibility has always been because God has always been. If time is anything, it is freedom and possibility, not a limit or a prison.
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RE: Prophecy - 3/7/2010 11:55:56 PM
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gralan
Posts: 2041
Joined: 1/29/2010
From: RV in Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
ORIGINAL: gralan
God, in order to be God, created everything that is outside of God. = I think you really mean He created everything that is not God. Nothing is actually "outside of God" since He created reality.
Yes, everything that is not God, God created.
God did not cause God's own existence, as a Necessary Being God has no contingency nor any potentialities. God is.
God is not bound by the created order. The reverse is true. The created order is bound by its Creator.
Time, outside of human existence, has no measurable meaning and cannot be proven otherwise. Therefore to argue about God not knowing the future is to state that God being outside of time doesn't know what is happening in the created order. As such God would be contingent upon events occurring outside of God's control. As such God could not be a Necessary Being. Therefore God cannot have created. = But this only addresses the present. "What is happening" is only the present, not the future.
How are you addressing the idea that God being outside of time has awareness of what is happening in the time frame which God created. There is an end, and a beginning. It is all created by God. I was addressing God being a Necessary Being. As such God is not constrained by God's creation, otherwise God is contingent. A Necessary Being is not contingent.
This is antithetical to Bible teaching and faith in the true God since the beginning of the called people in Abraham. Thus it is not only illogical, it is outside of the Pale of orthodoxy. Perhaps that is a term some may wish to look up.
Since God actually is, to be a Christian means that one cannot logically accept the proposal that God does not know the future. = There is no Scripture that specifically requires acceptance of the doctrine of God's Foreknowledge in order to be saved.
Well, perhaps some may wish to discount Paul's writing in Romans, but I do not.
You are true it isn't an essential of the faith, but the question becomes are you trusting in the God of the Bible or your own imagination. I will cede the point, for you are right.
Again, if you want to accept that as the basis of your knowledge and beliefs you are welcome to ignore God's revelation and do your own thing.
Just be aware, those who wish to not live submitted to God will get their desire. It is not what I would wish for anyone. = Again, I do not see how acceptance of dynamic omniscience means that a person does not sincerely wish to live submitted to God.
It is not our ideas that allow us to submit to God. It is the releasing of our ideas of what should be and submitting to God that the Bible calls us to do. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you are referring to.
Now, this conversation has be ongoing at least 800 years, regarding God and time and creation specifically. Perhaps some study would help in order to address this in a way that is consistent with real knowledge, at least with the right vocabulary. = Actually, I think these issues first began to be considered by theologians in Augustine's time period. That would be >1500 years ago.
Yes, I was speaking of the introduction of Necessary Being into the conversation. You did that math pretty quick though, I'm impressed. If I'm not mistaken that came about with Thomas Aquinas.
Alvin Plantinga and William Lane Craig are among those leading thinkers today that believe that not only does God know the future, but God knew before Creation every possibility of how things could turn out and we are living in God's choice as the best one. The meaning? God knows how things would turn out if God acted differently. God then is not enslaved by God's creation. This is a very Biblical idea. = I believe Platinga and Craig subscribe to a form of Molinism called "compatibilist middle knowledge". I disagree that it's "a very Biblical idea" although the Bible provides significant indirect support for this concept.
Yes, they are molinists. The Biblical idea I was referring to is God not being enslaved by creation. We do not control God, nor what God does.
If you wish to discuss Christian Philolosphy I'd be glad to. But let's just make sure we all know that is what we are doing. = I wonder, gralan, if it's really fair to call this discussion "Christian philosophy". It's true that we are Christians discussing an esoteric philosophical issue called "time". But the fact is that all of these "theories" are little more than puny human efforts to try and reconcile the tension between God's Sovereignty and mankind's free will. At some point, faith must kick in and we will say with Job - "Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know".
Faith in God, confidence that God has the power to do as God promised, confidence and trust in the finished work of Jesus Christ is the only way a person becomes a new creation. We know and learn about God's self-revelation in the Bible. We cannot glean it from philosophy itself.
But philosophy is still philosophy. We all have a philosophy, just like we all have a theology. Hopefully we are exposing ourselves to what the Bible says so that God's final authoritative revelation in the Word of God/Holy Scriptures continues to conform us into the maturity that resembles the spiritual maturity of Jesus our Lord.
IMO.
May God continue to have grace towards all of us who seek His face, and hopefully that is everyone here in this thread.
_____________________________
suffering servant, gralan,
BTh student TGSAT
//TrinityTheology.org/
//freecourses.trinitytheology.org/
The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever...
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