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Time to Leave the ELCA - 12/4/2009 3:45:55 PM
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SabreHawk
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Below is an email I sent to our church council. As an FYI, I have attended an ELCA seminary. To my fellow ELCA members - its time to stand up and lead your ELCA church away from this denomination . . .
Dear Council members,
After the other night's meeting, and the months of discussions, I wanted to share some thoughts and questions with you. Thank you, and I trust you will do right according to God's word.
The ELCA has continually put their thoughts above God's word and will. The vote on homosexuality is just one piece of evidence to this. One council member, at one time, asked if there are other reasons to leave the ELCA. I, and others, have told you about the other reasons, but the council has never broached the subject again.
There are many reasons to leave the ELCA.
- The ELCA is promoting a brand of "universal salvation." The Lutheran Study Bible says, "Jesus includes in salvation people who do not believe in him or even know about him. That is not Biblical. Is this the denomination we want to have ties to?
- This denomination teaches that Jesus did not say what the Bible says He said. Is this the denomination we want to have ties to?
- They date the writings of scripture by seeing when "prophecies are fulfilled" and decide there is no way the writers could know what would happen before hand, so they decide scripture must have been written after the fulfillment. i.e. - God not involved. Is this the denomination we want to have ties to?
- The ELCA does not believe there is prophecy in the Bible! There are hundreds of places where the Bible says there is! Jesus says many times that it does. Some people say over 25% of the Bible is prophetic. Is this the denomination we want to have ties to?
-This denomination has denied God's authorship of the Holy Bible, as evidenced from the listing above. And the Bible even refers to itself as Holy (2 Timothy 3:15). Is this the denomination we want to have ties to?
- The ELCA has taken a stand against Israel. They threaten to stop all financial relations with Israel. They want Jerusalem and parts of Israel given to the Arabs. God gave Israel that land. It states it clearly in the Bible. God confirmed it with Isaac and Jacob that the land was for them. This is against God's will, and it is an action that the Bible warns about. "In those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will enter into judgment against them concerning my inheritance, my people Israel, for they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land." Joel 3:1-2. Is this the denomination we want to have ties to?
- The ELCA supports abortions in their medical coverage. They also actively promote and lobby for the use of public funds for abortions. Is this the denomination we want to have ties to?
- The ELCA and others supporting homosexuality try every kind of theological gymnastic move to make the the Bible mean something other than what it says. They even try this when God so clearly says homosexuality is a sin. They also try to say Revelation is not about prophecy, even when the biblical author writes "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who testifies to everything he saw--that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ." (Rev. 1:1-2) In reality, what the ELCA is doing is calling the Biblical authors and God LIERS! Is this the denomination we want to have ties to?
Council President, would you please put on the council's agenda for the next meeting, "other reasons for leaving the ELCA" and discuss those I've brought up.
I believe God's hand was in the writing of the Bible, that God used the writer's style to say what was said, but they were all according to God's will, and truth. The ELCA must not believe this. Now I am sure they have some high-talking explanation and warped definition of "God's Word" that makes them feel better and still hold to their view of picking the parts of the Bible they like and throwing away the rest. If an ELCA seminary student can say, as I heard him say, "The more I learn about the Bible the less I like it," there is something wrong with the denomination's teaching. And it is hard to believe that someone on our council can say "Paul wasn't the son of God . . ." as a way to discredit what Paul wrote. That person, as so many ELCA leaders, must not believe that God inspired all the writings. They are God's words just as much as Paul's.
I have read the quotes of Luther (I list a few below). He believes the Bible is God's word and never erred. How did the ELCA evolve to the view of the Bible they now have? The ELCA isn't even in agreement with its great Christian leader and founder, MARTIN LUTHER!
The ELCA has decided they know better than God on issues and that they know better than the God-inspired writers. We all need to take that very seriously. The Bible speaks about people who were teaching falsely being kicked out of the church. (i.e. the ELCA leaders) Shouldn't our church get as far away as possible from the ELCA's false teachers? We wouldn't stay in relationship/community with Jim Jones would we?
We all need to think and pray long and hard before we choose to follow human ways that contradict God's written word.
On the issue of homosexuality the Bible is clear. Homosexuality is a sin. Someone who is caught in habitual sin, with no attempt to stop, should not be in leadership of God's people. We should not bless people for their sin. We should love them enough to help them out of it. I recommend you all read the Bible verses that speak of homosexuality again. God is clear. And God is God, He should know.
So is the ELCA a denomination you want to be part of? Is this a denomination we want to have a connection to?
While the ELCA assembly was meeting August 19th God sent them a warning, when on a day where meteorologists said there was not going to be any bad weather, there was. God sent a warning in the form of a tornado. Something that hadn't happened in 90 years, took place; a tornado hits in downtown Minneapolis. It damages the buildings the ELCA were meeting in. The day and the hour of the first vote on homosexuality. This is documented fact. Is this a denomination were want to be connected to?
Because of the ELCA's new beliefs and actions, I am embarrassed to be a member of the ELCA. I also can not vote for anything but a complete cutting of ties to the ELCA. Giving money to fund their programs is supporting the ELCA and helping them employ their people and continue there mockery of God's word. A book that Jesus viewed as from God.
Are we a church that is going to stand on God's Word? Will God bless our church if it takes a stand that is against His Word?
Thanks for listening,
Dan
P.S. - It you agree with me, please feel free to copy or forward my email on to anyone who maybe interested.
Luther quotes -
Luther wrote, "The pope boasts that the Christian Church is above the Word of God. No, this is not true! We must be pupils and not aspire to be masters, for the pupil must not be above his master." (LW. 23.231; Q. in Ibid.)
Also, "Years ago all the pope's pronouncements were called Christian truth and articles of faith, yet this was simply based on man. And then it happened that people sank into the abyss and lost everything that pertains to the Word of God and Christ. Therefore, we must now declare: 'Pope, council, and doctors, we will not believe you; but we will believe in the Divine Word." (LW. 23.297; Q. in Ibid.)
"When anything contrary to Scripture is decreed in a council, we ought to believe Scripture rather than the council. Scripture is our court of appeal and bulwark; with it we can resist even an angel from heaven - as St. Paul commands in Galatians 1(:8) - let alone a pope and a council." (LW. 32.81; Q. in Wood, 126)
Luther writes about the Old Testament, "I beg and really caution every pious Christian not to be offended by the simplicity of the language and stories frequently encountered there, but fully realize that, however simple they may seem, these are the very words, works, judgments and deeds of the majesty, power and wisdom of the most high God." (LW 35.236; Q. in Wood)
"The Christian reader should make it his first task to seek out the literal sense, as they call it. For it alone is the whole substance of faith and Christian theology; it alone holds its ground in trouble and trial." (LW. 9.24; Q. in Wood, 164)
Luther also said that one. . . "should take pains to have one definite and simple understanding of Scripture and not to be a wanderer and vagabond, like the rabbis, the Scholastic theologians, and the professors of law, who are always toiling with ambiguities." (LW. 8.209; Q. in Ibid.)
"Among Christians the rule is not to argue or investigate, not to be a smart aleck or a rationalistic know-it-all; but to hear, believe, and persevere in the Word of God, through which alone we obtain whatever knowledge we have of God and divine things. We are not to determine out of ourselves what we must believe about him, but to hear and learn it from him." (LW. 13.237; Q. in Wood, 120)
"Luther did believe that much of the conciliar decisions did contain truth, but only in so far as they correspond with the written Word. Luther viewed the fathers in similar fashion. Although Luther quotes the fathers frequently throughout his works, he nevertheless holds their teachings up to the light of Scripture in order to determine their truthfulness. This stance caused some to accuse Luther of rejecting all the past teachers of the Church. Luther denied this accusation, writing, 'I do not reject them. But everyone, indeed, knows that at times they have erred, as men will; therefore, I am ready to trust them only when they give me evidence for their opinions from Scripture, which has never erred.' (LW. 32.11; Q. in Wood, 125) Luther determined to follow the practice of Augustine in these matters, who in a letter to Jerome wrote, 'I have learned to do only those books that are called the Holy Scriptures the honor of believing firmly that none of their writes has ever erred. All others I so read as not to hold what they say to be truth unless they prove it to me by Holy Scripture or clear reason.'" (Epistolae, 82; Q. in LW. 32.189; Q. in Wood, 125)
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RE: Time to Leave the ELCA - 12/4/2009 5:29:07 PM
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sue244
Posts: 838
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I'm not a Lutheran but I say good for you. I applaud you taking this stand.
_____________________________
It is a remarkable fact that all the heresies which have arisen in the Christian Church have had a decided tendency to 'dishonor God and to flatter man. Spurgeon
Never let us be guilty of sacrificing any portion of truth on the altar of peace. Ryle
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RE: Time to Leave the ELCA - 12/4/2009 5:36:17 PM
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KaptZ
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Certainly it is reasonable that someone would leave a denomination that they can no longer support.
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RE: Time to Leave the ELCA - 12/4/2009 7:24:16 PM
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Focusing
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Wow ... it never ceases to amaze me how churches/denominations/religions/whatever-you-want-to-call-them take it upon themselves to override God's Word. 
Anyway ... good for you! Nobody can say you weren't clear in what the issue is.
_____________________________
. . . when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?
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RE: Time to Leave the ELCA - 12/6/2009 9:23:11 PM
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its_GO_time
Posts: 735
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I left an ELCA church, 15 years ago, just as they began these 'studies on sexuality'. They do them every year, at their convention, IMO, to try to beat down those who oppose the ordination, of openly homosexual pastors. Now, that I'm on the outside looking in, I've come to the conclusion they are merley a ultra left wing political movement, disguising themselves as a church-and not doing a very good job at it, either.
_____________________________
"Jehovah has power enough without borrowing from our puny arm. Peace, ye unbelieving thoughts, be still, and know that the Lord reigneth." -C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Time to Leave the ELCA - 12/7/2009 8:01:01 PM
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drfuss
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quote:
ORIGINAL: its_GO_time
I left an ELCA church, 15 years ago, just as they began these 'studies on sexuality'. They do them every year, at their convention, IMO, to try to beat down those who oppose the ordination, of openly homosexual pastors. Now, that I'm on the outside looking in, I've come to the conclusion they are merley a ultra left wing political movement, disguising themselves as a church-and not doing a very good job at it, either.
A good point. I never thought of it that way. The social left wing movement gained control of the denomination.
The same type of thing happened in the American Psychological Association from about 1970 through the 1990s. They just keep up the pressure and got into leadership positions until they changed homosexual from being a psychiatric disorder to not being a psychiatric disorder. The APA had no new data to base the change on, they just declared it under pressure.
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RE: Time to Leave the ELCA - 12/12/2009 11:57:34 PM
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its_GO_time
Posts: 735
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Here is a little more help in your decision to leave the ELCA. As radio pastor Steve Brown would say "If you want to leave, that's okay... chances are Jesus already has"
_____________________________
"Jehovah has power enough without borrowing from our puny arm. Peace, ye unbelieving thoughts, be still, and know that the Lord reigneth." -C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Time to Leave the ELCA - 12/14/2009 4:12:05 PM
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SabreHawk
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Thanks for the link Its_Go_Time. Once again the ELCA leadership makes no attempt to see God's hand in writing scripture and His knowing all there is to know about homosexuality.
For all who know ELCA members, you are welcome to copy my Letter to the Council and send it to people that need to know what their church is up to.
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RE: Time to Leave the ELCA - 12/14/2009 11:46:49 PM
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LastHarvest
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Don't let me say I told you so, but I knew in my spirit that ELCA was going this way long before it became apparent. And this won't be the last denomination to fall. Next will come some of the Baptist groups which are being deeply infiltrated as we speak. Oh, and if you google it you can find that there are a growing number of gay pentecostal christians, so let not eh A/G and Calvary Chapels of the world think they are immune from having a gay man in the pulpit. The insitutionalized church is a sitting duck for this type of stuff. Not that the house churches are immune but they are less organized so a formal effort by the left or the gay-right to get in the door and influence things is not possible.
Yes, if you are a real believer it is time to take a stand and leave the ELCA in my opinion. Condoning anything that the Bible calls sin is a certain way to wind up among the goats on judgment day.
Remember Jesus told us about these times, 'Where the dead body is there the vultures will be gathered.'
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RE: Time to Leave the ELCA - 12/15/2009 5:02:31 AM
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richartrod
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As a member of The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS), I too am grieved by the heresy adopted by the ELCA leadership. However, my pastor taught in our adult Bible study that you cannot paint the entire ELCA with a broad liberal-apostate brush because it's actually a conglomerate of smaller conservative, liberal and moderate Lutheran denominations that came together in 1989 for strength in numbers.
Unfortunately, the liberals are the ones leading the ELCA headquarters, and have given Lutherans in general a bad name among evangelicals (who in turn get all wound up with Lutherans because we baptize babies, another hot topic). 
Liberal denominations in recent years have begun merging with each other, such as the United Church of Christ's merger with smaller liberal Congregational denominations and its near-merger with the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ). What they do not tell you is that they are hemorraging members because they are flocking to the conservative and evangelical ones. I myself left the Disciples of Christ for the LCMS because they no longer taught the Bible, believed non-Christians would not be kept out of heaven by a loving God, and treated minorities condescendingly (the latter issue deeply offended me as a Hispanic).
Here in Southern California, there have been some conservative, biblical ELCA congregations that have had it with the liberalism and switched denominations to the LCMS. The recent decisions on gay clergy were the last straw.
If some conservative ELCA churches feel this is what must be done to be faithful to the Word of God, then let it be done. It's not without precedent; Martin Luther himself set the standard.
_____________________________
If you visit Princess Tiana's restaurant in New Orleans, PLEASE don't order frogs' legs!
My website: Pandapolis.com
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RE: Time to Leave the ELCA - 12/18/2009 8:34:18 AM
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wishoosier
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Sabre - Thank you for your post.
There was a time when I was guilty of painting denominations with a broad brush, thinking "this church is _________, so they believe _______." The denomination I grew up in has also taken some liberal steps at the national/leadership level, but I came to realize that the congregations, the actual people, are indifferent or oblivious to what's happening in the denomination. A congregation's calling is not to fall into step with the denomination's leadership; however I am trying to clarify for myself what that relationship is and should be. For Lutherans (I'm a musician in an ELCA church) that relationship seems to be tied to heritage and cultural identity, and not staying in touch with the denomination's actions.
My congregation, while fairly conservative politically, is not wrestling with any of your issues in the forefront. The council has talked, and a few concerned parties on both sides have met w/the pastor on the homosexuality vote, but discussions about Biblical authority, salvation, etc., aren't happening at all, and that concerns me, because I think the congregation is under-developed when it comes to their faith and discipleship growth.
Sabre - are you loyal to your congregation? There is talk about a sub-group or perhaps new Lutheran denomination to emerge out of this struggle (pastors met in Fishers, IN, near Indianapolis, to discuss this possibility, and are waiting a year to see how things progress in the denomination). Would you stay with your congregation to encourage clarity or a stance on the issues you address, or are you considering washing your hands of the whole ELCA mess?
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RE: Time to Leave the ELCA - 12/18/2009 9:59:48 PM
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its_GO_time
Posts: 735
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quote:
As a member of The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS), I too am grieved by the heresy adopted by the ELCA leadership. However, my pastor taught in our adult Bible study that you cannot paint the entire ELCA with a broad liberal-apostate brush because it's actually a conglomerate of smaller conservative, liberal and moderate Lutheran denominations that came together in 1989 for strength in numbers
One pastor at my old ELCA church, always recommended Concordia Publishing House(LCMS) materials in Bible studies. It's no conicidence, that he was my favorite pastor. And I still read my Concordia Self-Study Bible, and my Concordia Reference Bible.
My biggest issue with the church, locally was the new pastor that they had called, was of the very liberal persuation, and basically echoed the words in the article I linked earlier, that the Word of God was full of mistakes, and that the book of James was not divinley inspired. I had only been saved for about 5 years, and I knew I couldn't sit under teaching, preaching like that. The pastor was kind of run out of the Church about a year later, and for the last 15 years they have had an "old school", more conservative, pastor, that they actually called out of retirement. now he's retired again, and they are searching for something they will probably not find in the ELCA semenaries.
_____________________________
"Jehovah has power enough without borrowing from our puny arm. Peace, ye unbelieving thoughts, be still, and know that the Lord reigneth." -C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Time to Leave the ELCA - 12/21/2009 3:15:02 PM
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SabreHawk
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Wishoosier. Good post. I will only stay a member of the ELCA until my church votes on what they want to do. If my church does not decide to end all affiliation and connection with the ELCA, I will no longer be a member there. (I don't want us to support and encourage the teaching of the liberals in charge of the denominations and seminaries, which is what we would be doing, even if we don't agree with their policies)
I feel it is my calling, hopefully with thousands of others to let our friends and fellow ELCA church goers know the truth about what the ELCA is teaching. There are so many people who are uninformed and/or complacent on the issues and they need to demand change in their church. I feel so strongly about this I've put together a website trying to inform as many ELCA members as I can about what their denomination is teaching, http://www.exposingtheelca.com. I hope, after reading the information, people will take action.
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RE: Time to Leave the ELCA - 12/22/2009 2:35:52 PM
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FREELUTH
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Saberhawk our congregation left ELCA five years ago, we could see this coming. If you need any help with the leaving process let me know.
_____________________________
My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus blood and righteousness.
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RE: Time to Leave the ELCA - 12/27/2009 5:49:06 PM
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momof4
Posts: 46
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From: an urban paradise!
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The more I hear about ELCA, the more I'm glad to belong to LCMS. I live in St. Paul, MN. Last August ELCA was having their convention in downtown Mpls, and they were discussing/voting on the question of ordaIning openly gay pastors that are in monogamous/life-long relationships. Previously, they required gay people to stay celebate in order to be ordained. During this discussion/voting time, a tornado hit downtown Mpls, somewhat of a rarity, due to the heat sheild that surrounds the densely populated downtown area, and it took the cross right off Central Lutheran Church, which is kind of the flagship church for ELCA in MN, and right next door to the Mpls Convention Center where they were meeting. My husband heard about it b4 I did, and said it was a definite sign from God that they were straying too far from His Word, so He took the cross off the church as a sign to the world that Jesus no longer dwelt there.
They didn't get it tho. They have since put the cross back up.
_____________________________
"There's more to life than just to live" (Jonas Brothers, "Hold On")
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RE: Time to Leave the ELCA - 12/27/2009 5:53:37 PM
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momof4
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And our LCMS church has been gaining members from ELCA recently. Over the yrs, we always got a few from them, but lately we have been getting them in larger numbers, as people don't agree with them for all of the above-stated reasons, not just the gay thing.
_____________________________
"There's more to life than just to live" (Jonas Brothers, "Hold On")
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RE: Time to Leave the ELCA - 12/28/2009 2:46:39 AM
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richartrod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: momof4
And our LCMS church has been gaining members from ELCA recently. Over the yrs, we always got a few from them, but lately we have been getting them in larger numbers, as people don't agree with them for all of the above-stated reasons, not just the gay thing.
momof4,
That's very encouraging. Not that the LCMS is stealing members from the ELCA, but that there are Lutherans are hungry for biblical truth and know they're not getting it in the ELCA anymore.
We must also overcome the media generalization that all Lutheran churches support openly gay clergy because the ELCA is the 800-pound gorilla of all Lutheran denominations in the US, and to our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, especially evangelicals, the ELCA is the only Lutheran denomination. 
_____________________________
If you visit Princess Tiana's restaurant in New Orleans, PLEASE don't order frogs' legs!
My website: Pandapolis.com
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RE: Time to Leave the ELCA - 12/28/2009 12:09:09 PM
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its_GO_time
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I loved the old "Service Book and Hymnal" of the ALC(I think) and can still recite much of the litrugy, from memory(never cared for the 'green hymnal', LBW, though). It's a shame the ELCA, has forced so many good churches into obivous heresy. And many, because they are so comfortable with "their church", as my own mother says, will not leave, or work to get them out of this organization.
_____________________________
"Jehovah has power enough without borrowing from our puny arm. Peace, ye unbelieving thoughts, be still, and know that the Lord reigneth." -C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Time to Leave the ELCA - 2/4/2010 2:51:45 AM
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dirkello165
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Well, I guess I'm going to be the sole voice of disagreement here. I recently became involved in an ELCA church...my first experience with anything outside of the LCMS when it comes to Lutheranism (I come from a conservative Baptist background). I have found the teaching quite focused on the grace of God, the miracle of salvation, and on how His love transforms our lives. I find that quite refreshing, and am also finding that I love liturgy (which with I had very little experience before attending this church). I do not know extensively their (i.e. those of this individual congregation) teachings on the validity of Scripture...tho my impression is that they believe it to be the inspired Word of God, found perfectly in the original transcripts. Of the denomination...I know even less. I have not read their confessions, though looking at their site, I feel that they espouse a very God-focused view of salvation:
http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/New-or-Returning-to-Church/What-Lutherans-Believe.aspx
"Today, nearly five centuries later, Lutherans still celebrate the Reformation on October 31 and still hold to the basic principles of Luther’s theological teachings, such as Grace alone, faith alone, Scripture alone. These comprise the very essence of Lutheranism:
* We are saved by the grace of God alone -- not by anything we do;
* Our salvation is through faith alone -- a confident trust in God, who in Christ promises us forgiveness, life and salvation; and
* The Bible is the norm for faith and life -- the true standard by which teachings and doctrines are to be judged."
--That's seems pretty solid to me.
http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/New-or-Returning-to-Church/Dig-Deeper/Salvation.aspx
"Will, then, all people be saved in the end? We must say with Braaten, 'We do not ... know the answer. (That) is stored up in the mystery of God’s own future. All (God) has let us know in advance is that he will judge the world according to the measure of his grace and love made known in Jesus Christ, which is ultimately greater than the fierceness of his wrath or the hideousness of our sin.'"
--I think this is putting the grace of God in the forefront, and because of this I'm not as terribly queasy as I would be about an interesting statement such as this. It is recognizing, that ultimately, all of us..."religious" or "non-religious"...are in equal need of Jesus' atoning work on the cross. It is HIS work that matters, not ours. And only God knows the mystery and depths of that (we get hints at this in Ephesians chapters 1 and 2). There is some mystery involved in salvation. We cannot judge others' hearts, and we know God is loving and just and will not go against His nature. We'll see.
--But this is not saying that all go to heaven, it is saying that we don't know. That distinction of what is being said by the ELCA should be made.
The stance on abortion bothers me, as I am staunchly pro-life except in cases of rape and incest (where I would still hope, pray, and advise a mother to carry to child to term); do you know if tithing to an individual ELCA congregation who, as churches in a denomination typically do, gives to the wider denomination funds, in part, these health plans which cover abortion? This is of great concern to me. I will be unable to tithe to this church if that is the case.
I am aware that there are quite liberal elements within the denomination, but do not feel that presence in this ELCA congregation. I very much feel God in and among us. We are split about 50/50 on the issue of homosexuality. I, for one, am in support of the decision to allow individual churches to elect gay leadership, though I do have a negative perception of the Statement on Sexuality and do not know all the specifics in language about homosexuality and the pastorate in other things passed. I base my beliefs about homosexuality on the Bible, the Holy Spirit, reason, and experience; and I feel it is my duty to share what I believe on this controversial matter, seeing this is a forum for discussion. Just having read that we are not to debate "acceptance" of homosexuality...I am pulling my original thoughts on the subject. I guess if you would like to hear my thoughts, let me know via private message.
< Message edited by dirkello165 -- 2/4/2010 3:08:14 AM >
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RE: Time to Leave the ELCA - 2/4/2010 1:28:43 PM
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CitationSquirrel
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Welcome to the boards Dirk. Although I am not a Lutheran (raised Baptist, currently Evangelical Free), I would like to comment on some of the things you raised regarding the ELCA, if I may.
First, they say that they hold to the idea of Sola Scriptura. But, when it comes to their making controversial decisions, like they did last August, do they base their decision solely on Scripture? No, they bring in this whole idea of “bound conscience.” In my eyes, when you use bound conscience to trump Scripture, you are no longer holding to Sola Scriptura.
Second, you quote from the “Dig-Deeper, Salvation” portion of their web site. I would read the whole thing very closely. I have some serious issues with some of the things that are being said. To me, they sound very universalistic. (This universalistic influx within the ELCA may explain the precipitous decline in their world missions numbers)
Finally, I have it from a very reliable source that yes, offering dollars are used to fund abortions (for any reason) in the ELCA health plan. This issue has been brought up in the past with the ELCA leadership, but they have refused to take any action.
Dirk, you say that the local church that you have found is “on-the-ball” when it comes to matters of doctrine. I do sincerely hope this is the case. If you have not done so already, I would recommend that you discuss these matters with your pastor and the leadership of the church to make sure that what they believe matches what you think they believe. Also, there is a Lutheran pastor in my area who has a couple of excellent YouTube videos on what is happening in the ELCA. I would highly recommend those as well.
_____________________________
"Prying into [the mysteries of election, predestination, and divine sovereignty] may make theologians, but it will never make saints." -- A.W. Tozer
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RE: Time to Leave the ELCA - 3/12/2010 10:30:39 AM
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AmericanJosiah
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When I first left The Catholic Church, I attended an ELCA church for awhile. I wasn't very aware of all these issues, and this congregation was more conservative than most ELCA ones. Still, as I learned about the differences (and since I was moving anyway), I focused on WELS and LCMS congregations. I found an LCMS one. This was all before the current "gay" flap. I'm glad to be in the LCMS.
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RE: Time to Leave the ELCA - 3/15/2010 3:48:50 AM
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jmjphe
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Sounds like these guys went above and beyond the saying "dont major in minors" by taking such a radical departure.
Funny you bring up the APA. If I remember right, way back when, the APA's earlier DSM (diagnostic and statistical manual) used to have the mood swings women went through during menstration as a psychiatric disorder.
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RE: Time to Leave the ELCA - 3/15/2010 2:23:57 PM
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fides_mea
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A very very interesting thread. I am 70 years old, baptized at 4 weeks at Concordia Lutheran Chuch (LCMS) Akron Ohio and confirmed at age 14. Married to a woman who was a member of Concordia Lutheran Church (LCMS) in Baldwin PA. We raised 4 children each baptized in LCMS churches and 3 of the 4 confirmed in LCMS churches. Now as adults we parted from a very dying LCMS church in Upper Marlboro Md and Joined a WELS congregation. Of my four children one has been a life long member of the LCMS. She and her husband and 3 children live in Bakersfield CA. My other 3 children live in Maryland and all have found their way into the ELCA. I have been aware of all the problems with ELCA through neighbor friends who belong to the same church one of my sons belongs to. Only one of these three children have discussed these ELCA problems with me. Because they come from a family that treasures God's word and is in that word each and every day of our lives I feel confident they will remain pristine Lutherans holding fast to our Confessions and God's Truth. As they have been placed in these churches by God's Spirit I believe they should now serve their Lord in upholding this Truth as long as they can before making any decision to search out a more conservative form of Lutheranism.
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RE: Time to Leave the ELCA - 3/15/2010 5:20:10 PM
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fides_mea
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quote:
- The ELCA is promoting a brand of "universal salvation." The Lutheran Study Bible says, "Jesus includes in salvation people who do not believe in him or even know about him. That is not Biblical. Is this the denomination we want to have ties to?
Sabrehawk - I have a copy of the Concordia Study Bible published by CPH but I would suppose the Lutheran Study Bible, also published by CPH and with numerous contributors from LCMS, would not be that far astray as you have depicted it in the above quote. Can you give me a page number and/or ch/verse that I could use to study what you have suggested is a form of "universal salvation". Danke!
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RE: Time to Leave the ELCA - 6/18/2010 2:36:22 PM
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AmericanJosiah
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quote:
ORIGINAL: richartrod
As a member of The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS), I too am grieved by the heresy adopted by the ELCA leadership. However, my pastor taught in our adult Bible study that you cannot paint the entire ELCA with a broad liberal-apostate brush because it's actually a conglomerate of smaller conservative, liberal and moderate Lutheran denominations that came together in 1989 for strength in numbers.
Unfortunately, the liberals are the ones leading the ELCA headquarters, and have given Lutherans in general a bad name among evangelicals (who in turn get all wound up with Lutherans because we baptize babies, another hot topic).
Liberal denominations in recent years have begun merging with each other, such as the United Church of Christ's merger with smaller liberal Congregational denominations and its near-merger with the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ). What they do not tell you is that they are hemorraging members because they are flocking to the conservative and evangelical ones. I myself left the Disciples of Christ for the LCMS because they no longer taught the Bible, believed non-Christians would not be kept out of heaven by a loving God, and treated minorities condescendingly (the latter issue deeply offended me as a Hispanic).
Here in Southern California, there have been some conservative, biblical ELCA congregations that have had it with the liberalism and switched denominations to the LCMS. The recent decisions on gay clergy were the last straw.
If some conservative ELCA churches feel this is what must be done to be faithful to the Word of God, then let it be done. It's not without precedent; Martin Luther himself set the standard.
I, too, am LCMS.
I think your pastor made a VERY good point, and since I know a number of ELCA folks, I fully agree with him.
Where I live, there have been several ELCA churches that have left that denomination; most joining some temporary, loose organization - I think to wait and see how all this shakes out. A FEW have joined the LCMS around the country, but not many.
I think we are finally seeing in Lutheranism what is now an international and common Christian pattern. Churches and Christians that were once more geographic in nature are "spliting" down a conservative/traditional : liberal distinction. LCMS, WELS, ALC and LCA were not so far apart 40 years ago; there is now quite a divide: LCMS and WELS on the conservative/traditional side, ELCA on the liberal side - the gap widening almost daily. In SOME ways, the LCMS now finds itself closer - in some ways - to conservative Reformed groups than to their siblings; ELCA now having altar fellowship with the UCC (one of the most liberal denominations in America) but not with any other Lutheran group in America.
I tend to be VERY hesitant to leave a church. I tend to embrace humility and community, and believe in making the grass greener where you are at. But official THEOLOGY is a "deal braker" for me, and there DOES come a point when we need to acknowledge that the church has moved so far away that what we embraced when we joined no longer exists there - it moved, we did not.
Blessings to you on your journey. And to the ELCA, LCMS, WELS, ELS. And all our organizations/followships.
Pax
- Josiah
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