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RE: "The Shack" - 7/7/2009 9:06:39 AM
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kmangel
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
kmangel, your thoughts are wonderful! Yes, we need to meet people where they are. There are open doors such as Paul encountered at Mars Hill. We need to engage people at the place where they are vulnerable, open to the truth, and pray they enter in. Thanks.
You're welcome! I've learned to be patient with God to work in the lives of the people I love. I would rather barge right in but I know that seldom works in real life! So, I wait and watch carefully for God to open doors--then I move. My son (he's 25) is one such person who saw my copy of the Shack and asked if he could borrow it. I said yes and to let me know his thoughts. I know from past conversations he has an interest in Who God is and I'm hoping the book will open up a dialog with him about God. I've discussed The DaVinci Code with him and Passion of the Christ. It's all part of his journey until that day when he comes to know Jesus in a real and personal way.
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RE: "The Shack" - 7/7/2009 9:16:56 AM
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iwillfearnoevil
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
Why would Jesus die if there were not judgment?
Why would man need to repent if he were not a sinner?
Are we reading the same book?
the original draft of the book was filled with the author's views of universal reconciliation. that is the belief that once Jesus died, everyone became saved regardless of their beliefs. (ie, Jesus died to prevent judgement on everyone). on the surface most of that has been edited out of the book by the publisher who does not follow that belief system during rewrites a year long. however knowing the book's initial premise, it is still easy to see some of that philosophy in the book and in the author's current work. thus i believe people are reading the same book but with different criticial eyes.
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RE: "The Shack" - 7/7/2009 10:40:55 AM
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Liveloved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iwillfearnoevil
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
Why would Jesus die if there were not judgment?
Why would man need to repent if he were not a sinner?
Are we reading the same book?
the original draft of the book was filled with the author's views of universal reconciliation. that is the belief that once Jesus died, everyone became saved regardless of their beliefs. (ie, Jesus died to prevent judgement on everyone). on the surface most of that has been edited out of the book by the publisher who does not follow that belief system during rewrites a year long. however knowing the book's initial premise, it is still easy to see some of that philosophy in the book and in the author's current work. thus i believe people are reading the same book but with different criticial eyes.
Yes, when we 'know' certain things, like what you have shared here, it is very hard NOT to see those things. Thanks for sharing this.
I guess I am more critical of the sources. I have heard and read much criticism of this book. I liken much of it to a drive-by shooting. They just point and shoot at 'whatever' has the appearance of evil without even getting out of the car and getting to know who or what they are shooting at. Now that is evil. It is what Jesus called unrighteous judgment. It is judgment based on what others say or believe to be true, what you hear with your ears or see with your eyes rather than what is in the heart. I don't want to practice that kind of judgment and it comes all too easily, KWIM?
Perhaps those of us who have experience with this kind of evil are more sensitive to it. I have seen much destruction done to others based on this kind of practice. That's why I love the story of the obscene altar in Joshua 22. This is God's story of how men 'rightly' make judgments. And it involves getting up close and personal with the one we think has committed the offense. And in God's story, the unrighteous judgment is changed to righteous judgment and love and relationship are the result. I want to believe that is possible for us as well. And I do believe!
So I understand why you see this book the way you do and appreciate your sharing how you've come to your conclusions. It should make all of us tremble at the impact our words, attitudes, and actions can have on others. Bless ya, iwillfearnoevil.
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: "The Shack" - 7/7/2009 12:14:57 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdom
God does receive us just as we are, but His will is for us to grow more like Jesus of the Bible.
Bridges are wonderful tools to use...it's the material from which the bridge is made that is of concern here.
So what would we say of the bridge the Apostle Paul used at Mars Hill? He is examining the objects of worship in Athens, objects of their worship, and he uses those objects from which to speak truth to those who will hear. The material they are made of are of great concern. Yet Paul uses this opportunity to engage them in a conversation. (Acts 17)
And to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews, to those who are under the Law, as under the Law, though not being myself under the Law, that I might win those who are under the Law; to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God, but under the law of Christ , that I might win those who are without law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, that I may by all means save some. And I do all things for the sake of the gospel, that I may become a fellow partaker of it. I Cor 9:20-23
This is why I see it differently. Paul used many means to reach men and he reached many. I want to live as he did. And I think it significant that this passage ends with these words "that I may become a fellow partaker of it". It was important for Paul's partaking to use these various means to reach others. So for us there must also be a partaking of the gospel importance when we are willing to become what we are not for the sake of others.
It is very deep, very rich, very wonderful and I know I only begin to comprehend this kind of willingness. But I want to and I'm sure you do as well. Blessings.
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: "The Shack" - 7/7/2009 12:18:05 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4246
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdom
God does receive us just as we are, but His will is for us to grow more like Jesus of the Bible.
Bridges are wonderful tools to use...it's the material from which the bridge is made that is of concern here.
So what would we say of the bridge the Apostle Paul used at Mars Hill? He is examining the objects of worship in Athens, objects of their worship, and he uses those objects from which to speak truth to those who will hear. The material they are made of are of great concern. Yet Paul uses this opportunity to engage them in a conversation. (Acts 17)
And to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews, to those who are under the Law, as under the Law, though not being myself under the Law, that I might win those who are under the Law; to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God, but under the law of Christ , that I might win those who are without law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, that I may by all means save some. And I do all things for the sake of the gospel, that I may become a fellow partaker of it. I Cor 9:20-23
This is why I see it differently. Paul used many means to reach men and he reached many. I want to live as he did. And I think it significant that this passage ends with these words "that I may become a fellow partaker of it". It was important for Paul's partaking to use these various means to reach others. So for us there must also be a partaking of the gospel importance when we are willing to become what we are not for the sake of others.
It is very deep, very rich, very wonderful and I know I only begin to comprehend this kind of willingness. But I want to and I'm sure you do as well. Blessings.
Paul never said anything that contradicted or deviated from the Word of God. At Mars Hill he noticed an altar to an "unknown god" and used it to tell the people there about God the Creator. He didn't make something up to match what they already had. He took what they had and said "this is the truth."
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RE: "The Shack" - 7/7/2009 12:31:57 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 5668
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdom
God does receive us just as we are, but His will is for us to grow more like Jesus of the Bible.
Bridges are wonderful tools to use...it's the material from which the bridge is made that is of concern here.
So what would we say of the bridge the Apostle Paul used at Mars Hill? He is examining the objects of worship in Athens, objects of their worship, and he uses those objects from which to speak truth to those who will hear. The material they are made of are of great concern. Yet Paul uses this opportunity to engage them in a conversation. (Acts 17)
And to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews, to those who are under the Law, as under the Law, though not being myself under the Law, that I might win those who are under the Law; to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God, but under the law of Christ , that I might win those who are without law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, that I may by all means save some. And I do all things for the sake of the gospel, that I may become a fellow partaker of it. I Cor 9:20-23
This is why I see it differently. Paul used many means to reach men and he reached many. I want to live as he did. And I think it significant that this passage ends with these words "that I may become a fellow partaker of it". It was important for Paul's partaking to use these various means to reach others. So for us there must also be a partaking of the gospel importance when we are willing to become what we are not for the sake of others.
It is very deep, very rich, very wonderful and I know I only begin to comprehend this kind of willingness. But I want to and I'm sure you do as well. Blessings.
Paul never said anything that contradicted or deviated from the Word of God. At Mars Hill he noticed an altar to an "unknown god" and used it to tell the people there about God the Creator. He didn't make something up to match what they already had. He took what they had and said "this is the truth."
Ditto...what stella said.
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RE: "The Shack" - 7/7/2009 2:24:09 PM
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zoebob
Posts: 7152
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I'll agree too
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RE: "The Shack" - 7/7/2009 2:53:58 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 5668
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quote:
ORIGINAL: desertgirl
My experience has been that scoffing at people does nothing but chase them away, and how is that serving the Kindgom? Should we not meet people where they are (even if it's on the other side of a bridge built of straw) and help them from there ... show them a better way, God's Way? Or do we stand around ridiculing them for making a choice that we in all our superior wisdom and self-righteousness wouldn't have made?
There are a lot of very intelligent people posting in this thread ... perhaps some of that intellect could be directed at how do we minister to people who have read this book?
nobody is scoffing...just saying The Shack is a not a very solid foundation on which to build a saving faith. The concerns have been voiced. Do with them whatever you want or don't want. It is up to you (you in the universal sense) But to act as though we have no responsibility when we recommend books, etc. might not hold too much water when we stand before the Lord some day and He asks why we didn't recommend His book instead.
and I will ignore your own self-righteous comments on other's intellect and self-righteousness. No need to get all personal...this thread is tense enough.
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RE: "The Shack" - 7/7/2009 3:15:09 PM
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doinkdom
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Why would a discussion about a book like The Shack, which is all about theology, not have theology as part of the discussion...
whutever
dead horse
really dead horse
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RE: "The Shack" - 7/7/2009 3:15:42 PM
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stellaluna
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I haven't seen anyone in this thread called out personally. I do see some quasi-heated debate among Christians about whether this book is an accurate representation of the God-head.
No one has even discussed what to say to people who have already read the book and believe it to be accurate. No one has asked me how I've addressed such with people I know and I haven't shared that information.
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RE: "The Shack" - 7/7/2009 3:22:47 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 5668
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From: The higher lowcountry
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
I haven't seen anyone in this thread called out personally. I do see some quasi-heated debate among Christians about whether this book is an accurate representation of the God-head.
No one has even discussed what to say to people who have already read the book and believe it to be accurate. No one has asked me how I've addressed such with people I know and I haven't shared that information.
I'd definitely be interested in what you've asked people, talked about...cause the only ones I've heard talking about it are already professing Christians. And what I would say to them has already been addressed.
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RE: "The Shack" - 7/7/2009 3:27:51 PM
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Focusing
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I think rather than continue being misunderstood, I will just stay out of this conversation
< Message edited by desertgirl -- 7/8/2009 11:01:12 AM >
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RE: "The Shack" - 2/24/2010 4:38:26 PM
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Fritzpw_Admin
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quote:
The Shack — The Missing Art of Evangelical Discernment
Albert Mohler - Author, Speaker, President of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
The publishing world sees very few books reach blockbuster status, but William Paul Young's The Shack has now exceeded even that. The book, at first self-published by Young and two friends, has now sold more than 10 million copies and has been translated into over thirty languages. It is now one of the best-selling paperback books of all time, and its readers are enthusiastic.
According to Young, the book was originally written for his own children. In essence, it can be described as a narrative theodicy -- an attempt to answer the question of evil and the character of God by means of a story. In this story, the main character is grieving the brutal kidnapping and murder of his seven-year-old daughter when he receives what turns out to be a summons from God to meet him in the very shack where the man's daughter had been murdered.
In the shack, "Mack" meets the divine Trinity as "Papa," an African-American woman; Jesus, a Jewish carpenter; and "Sarayu," an Asian woman who is revealed to be the Holy Spirit. The book is mainly a series of dialogues between Mack, Papa, Jesus, and Sarayu. Those conversations reveal God to be very different than the God of the Bible. "Papa" is absolutely non-judgmental, and seems most determined to affirm that all humanity is already redeemed.
The theology of The Shack is not incidental to the story. Indeed, at most points the narrative seems mainly to serve as a structure for the dialogues. And the dialogues reveal a theology that is unconventional at best, and undoubtedly heretical in certain respects.
While the literary device of an unconventional "trinity" of divine persons is itself sub-biblical and dangerous, the theological explanations are worse. "Papa" tells Mack of the time when the three persons of the Trinity "spoke ourself into human existence as the Son of God." Nowhere in the Bible is the Father or the Spirit described as taking on human existence. The Christology of the book is likewise confused. "Papa" tells Mack that, though Jesus is fully God, "he has never drawn upon his nature as God to do anything. He has only lived out of his relationship with me, living in the very same manner that I desire to be in relationship with every human being." When Jesus healed the blind, "He did so only as a dependent, limited human being trusting in my life and power to be at work within him and through him. Jesus, as a human being, had no power within himself to heal anyone."
Read the rest of The Shack — The Missing Art of Evangelical Discernment
I thought this was a great write up on the book.
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RE: "The Shack" - 2/24/2010 5:38:18 PM
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themoodyexperience
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Great article. It's about time some heavy hitters starting taking this book to task for its awful theology.
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RE: "The Shack" - 2/24/2010 8:39:16 PM
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Reform_Dave
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quote:
ORIGINAL: themoodyexperience
Great article. It's about time some heavy hitters starting taking this book to task for its awful theology.
Agreed, but will those with itching ears listen?.
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If the Gospel were more clearly and faithfully preached, fewer would profess to believe it.- A.W. Pink
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RE: "The Shack" - 2/24/2010 8:50:48 PM
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themoodyexperience
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Reform_Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: themoodyexperience
Great article. It's about time some heavy hitters starting taking this book to task for its awful theology.
Agreed, but will those with itching ears listen?.
I pray they do, but in reality I kinda doubt it. People find comfort in the melodrama and that's the spoonful of sugar that makes the heresy go down.
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RE: "The Shack" - 2/26/2010 11:32:33 AM
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Liveloved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: themoodyexperience
quote:
ORIGINAL: Reform_Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: themoodyexperience
Great article. It's about time some heavy hitters starting taking this book to task for its awful theology.
Agreed, but will those with itching ears listen?.
I pray they do, but in reality I kinda doubt it. People find comfort in the melodrama and that's the spoonful of sugar that makes the heresy go down.
The heavy hitters in Jesus' day took Him to task for His 'awful' theology.
They saw Jesus and His disciples walking through the grainfields on the Sabbath, picking heads of grain and eating. The heavy hitters told Jesus this was wrong theology being lived out. And Jesus' 'awful' theological response?
Something greater than the temple is here. But if you had known what this means, 'I desire compassion, and not a sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent. Matthew 12:6-7
And when the heavy hitters brought to Jesus a woman who they had caught in the act of adultery, what was Jesus' response? In the Law, the doctrine of their day, stoning of the offender was the command. Did Jesus pick up a stone? Did He respond in the theologically correct way?
Not to their way of understanding. He didn't pick up a stone. He knelt down. He lowered Himself, putting Himself in the place of this lowly, sinful, undeserving and guilty woman. Dirt. Jesus would place Himself in the dirt rather than point the accusing finger at this woman.
There is something greater than the temple here.
Why does a fictional story create such an uproar? Why does Young's book, The Shack, disturb so many?
Is his book to be read as gospel? No. It is fiction.
But Young confronts the same problem in our day that Jesus confronted in His day. Men love rules. And they love wielding authority over others.
Jesus knelt down. Jesus humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
It's about relationship, broken relationship. Man still does not understand. Young spoke to relationship, God's heart and the need of every man. That is why his message is so disturbing. It is the same reason Jesus' message was so disturbing.
The spoonful of sugar made the 'heresy' of Jesus go down as well. I'm glad it did. The Lord knew rules were not the answer. The answer is a person. Jesus. And those who know Him will not be deceived. They know His voice and will not follow another.
I'm not following the Jesus of Young's creation. He was writing a fictional story. It's not even that good of a story IMO. But he does confront some very needful errors within the church. And that confrontation is evident by the responses of men such as Mohler.
Perhaps the heavy hitters should ask what they are missing? That's my prayer.
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Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: "The Shack" - 2/26/2010 12:05:24 PM
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themoodyexperience
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Well, that's a natural reaction, to compare something that challenges to Pharisee-ism. You take a term I used "heavy hitters" and ascribe those qualities, completely missing the point of the term. I meant that finally someone with some name recognition is taking this book to task.
Also, the 'I can't believe there is such an uproar over a fiction book' is trite. Assigning outrage to people who are simply questioning its content is a nice diversion.
I know that the book is comforting. I read it and that part of it did touch my heart, as does all good melodrama. But that does not excuse the theology.
From the article:
The theology of The Shack is not incidental to the story. Indeed, at most points the narrative seems mainly to serve as a structure for the dialogues. And the dialogues reveal a theology that is unconventional at best, and undoubtedly heretical in certain respects.
Discernment can't be shut off simply because it is popular or it's about the Trinity. There are plenty of things that sound good that have the name of Jesus attached to them that aren't good at all. I, for one would not presume to put words into the mouth of Jesus because I have His Word. Rightly dividing the Word of Truth is hardly assigning rules to Jesus.
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RE: "The Shack" - 2/26/2010 12:42:23 PM
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stellaluna
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
I'm not following the Jesus of Young's creation. He was writing a fictional story. It's not even that good of a story IMO. But he does confront some very needful errors within the church. And that confrontation is evident by the responses of men such as Mohler.
I'm not sure correcting any existing error in the church was worth the errors left behind by this fictional tale.
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RE: "The Shack" - 2/26/2010 2:12:08 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: themoodyexperience
Well, that's a natural reaction, to compare something that challenges to Pharisee-ism. You take a term I used "heavy hitters" and ascribe those qualities, completely missing the point of the term. I meant that finally someone with some name recognition is taking this book to task.
Also, the 'I can't believe there is such an uproar over a fiction book' is trite. Assigning outrage to people who are simply questioning its content is a nice diversion.
I know that the book is comforting. I read it and that part of it did touch my heart, as does all good melodrama. But that does not excuse the theology.
From the article:
The theology of The Shack is not incidental to the story. Indeed, at most points the narrative seems mainly to serve as a structure for the dialogues. And the dialogues reveal a theology that is unconventional at best, and undoubtedly heretical in certain respects.
Discernment can't be shut off simply because it is popular or it's about the Trinity. There are plenty of things that sound good that have the name of Jesus attached to them that aren't good at all. I, for one would not presume to put words into the mouth of Jesus because I have His Word. Rightly dividing the Word of Truth is hardly assigning rules to Jesus.
Natural reaction to compare something that challenges to Phariseeism? Isn't it exactly the opposite? Isn't it the Pharisee who challenged Jesus over and over and over again?
Did I miss the point of 'heavy hitters'? Weren't you referring to someone with doctrinal authority and clout? Someone as you say 'with name recognition'? No, the 'heavy hitters' of Jesus' day were the Pharisees. They were the doctrinal authorities and they had clout. I did not miss the point at all. I heard it and I'm speaking to it.
quote:
'I can't believe there is such an uproar over a fiction book' is trite. That is not what I said. What I did say was to ask a question.quote:
Why does a fictional story create such an uproar? I've asked the question. My question is not a diversion at all. Jesus frequently asked questions as well. Hmm, was He diverting? Or was He getting to the heart of the problem?
You say the book is comforting. I did not find the book in any way comforting. It is a book. I do not need the theology of The Shack. I do not need 'comfort' from a book such as The Shack. The Holy Spirit is my Comforter. But the book does address some things the church visible has misunderstood. And, if anything, it puts one on her knees for the church, striving in prayer. Comfort? That's not what the follower of Christ is after.
I would not call a fictional story heretical. Do I agree with all that the characters in Young's book say? Absolutely not. But I will defend his right to say them.
And I would challenge others to draw close to Jesus through His word. Jesus wants to be known. He is about relationship. That is one aspect that Young got very right.
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Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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But today he is not actively pursuing relationship with the Lord that I know of. And so we pray and believe and trust and KNOW that He who began a good work in him will be faithful to complete it. The Lord gave me that verse when our son went off to college. What a comfort and encouragement to pray and believe that has been! The day WILL come when we see the results of our prayers for our boys.\o/\o/\o/
