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RE: global warming on trial? - 11/28/2009 11:39:49 AM
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rcjames
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We really should not be surprised at the efforts of the "Global warming" scientists to supress honest debate, research, and to control the content of the climatology journals to fit their agenda. It has been going on in the field of Anthropology/Archeology for 150 years, and continues today.
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
< Message edited by rcjames -- 11/28/2009 11:54:48 AM >
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: global warming on trial? - 11/29/2009 9:00:50 AM
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Trixter
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
We really should not be surprised at the efforts of the "Global warming" scientists to supress honest debate, research, and to control the content of the climatology journals to fit their agenda.
What agenda? The only agenda I see is from the right wing to debunk even the slightest possibilty of global warming, no matter what the evidence suggests, just to get back at Al Gore.
And that is purely political.
< Message edited by Trixter -- 11/29/2009 9:08:05 AM >
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RE: global warming on trial? - 11/29/2009 3:07:25 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 8180
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Trixter
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
We really should not be surprised at the efforts of the "Global warming" scientists to supress honest debate, research, and to control the content of the climatology journals to fit their agenda.
What agenda? The only agenda I see is from the right wing to debunk even the slightest possibilty of global warming, no matter what the evidence suggests, just to get back at Al Gore.
And that is purely political.
And you don't consider lying, covering up valid evidence against "Global warming" destroying the careers of any who disagree with them; all evidenced in their own emails as an agenda and conspiracy?
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
< Message edited by rcjames -- 11/29/2009 3:14:42 PM >
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: global warming on trial? - 11/30/2009 8:50:48 PM
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Trixter
Posts: 119
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
And you don't consider lying, covering up valid evidence against "Global warming" destroying the careers of any who disagree with them; all evidenced in their own emails as an agenda and conspiracy?
That "evidence" is probably edited out of context, altered, and released for the sole purpose of trying to discredit the folks who examine the real evidence.
Look me in eye (figuratively) and tell me that anti-global warmers don't have an agenda of their own against Al Gore and environmentalism.
The problem with those acting on this agenda is that the ends justifies the means for them. Playing dirty pool is their way of winning at any and all costs because they can't deal with liberals, Democrats, Al Gore, etc.
It's all political and irresponsible because they don't want to face the responsibility of the consequences for our actions, or inactions in this case.
I mean, God forbid if global warming were real because then- horror!- we might have to do something about it . . .
< Message edited by Trixter -- 11/30/2009 8:59:01 PM >
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RE: global warming on trial? - 12/1/2009 2:53:42 AM
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StephenJ
Posts: 453
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quote:
Look me in eye (figuratively) and tell me that anti-global warmers don't have an agenda of their own against Al Gore and environmentalism.
The problem with those acting on this agenda is that the ends justifies the means for them. Playing dirty pool is their way of winning at any and all costs because they can't deal with liberals, Democrats, Al Gore, etc.
It's all political and irresponsible because they don't want to face the responsibility of the consequences for our actions, or inactions in this case.
I mean, God forbid if global warming were real because then- horror!- we might have to do something about it . . .
Reduce our consumption of resources, reuse the things we already have, and be content with less stuff? Bite your tounge have you forgoten what time of year this is? Get back in the check out line.
*Cracks whip.*
Though truth be told I'm still waiting for Mr. Gore to join us herbivores on the no meat bus.
< Message edited by StephenJ -- 12/1/2009 3:06:41 AM >
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RE: global warming on trial? - 12/1/2009 4:59:33 PM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2618
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Trixter
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
And you don't consider lying, covering up valid evidence against "Global warming" destroying the careers of any who disagree with them; all evidenced in their own emails as an agenda and conspiracy?
That "evidence" is probably edited out of context, altered, and released for the sole purpose of trying to discredit the folks who examine the real evidence.
Of course. The evidence deflates one of your sacred cows and so OF COURSE you have to dismiss the evidence. Can't have your belief system bothered by pesky things like reality or facts or evidence, now can you? 
The bottom line is this: there is now incontrovertible evidence that many "scientists" who have been responsible for producing data related to global warming and climate change have changed numbers, made up numbers, erased numbers, and hid numbers from information act requests in order for their final data to show a global warming trend.
quote:
Look me in eye (figuratively) and tell me that anti-global warmers don't have an agenda of their own against Al Gore and environmentalism.
Of course we have an agenda. Our "evil" anti-glo-bull-warming agenda is to let the public examine the truth of the matter and to disprove liars and hypocrites wherever they may live. It turns out they live at Al Gore's house and in zealous environmental movements.
quote:
The problem with those acting on this agenda is that the ends justifies the means for them. Playing dirty pool is their way of winning at any and all costs because they can't deal with liberals, Democrats, Al Gore, etc.
It's all political and irresponsible because they don't want to face the responsibility of the consequences for our actions, or inactions in this case.
I mean, God forbid if global warming were real because then- horror!- we might have to do something about it . . .
If man-made glo-bull warming were real, everyone would be on board with "doing something". The problem is that all evidence points to man-made glo-bull warming being a hoax. Therefore, nothing needs to be done to fix a problem that does not exist.
If you want to be anti-air pollution, I'm with you! It would be nice to be able to jog or bike without having to wear a filter mask! But once you cross that line and head from good stewardship (lets not pollute because it makes the air hard to breath and the water unhealthy to drink) into fear-mongering hoaxes (if you turn up your thermostat over 65 degrees the Earth will be destroyed), you'll be journeying without me.
_____________________________
"The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'" - Psalms 14:1
"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ" - 2 Cor 10:5
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RE: global warming on trial? - 12/1/2009 6:13:23 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 8180
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Trixter
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
And you don't consider lying, covering up valid evidence against "Global warming" destroying the careers of any who disagree with them; all evidenced in their own emails as an agenda and conspiracy?
That "evidence" is probably edited out of context, altered, and released for the sole purpose of trying to discredit the folks who examine the real evidence.
You really should spend some time reading the emails and then put down your galss of kool-aid.
quote:
Look me in eye (figuratively) and tell me that anti-global warmers don't have an agenda of their own against Al Gore and environmentalism.
Yes the "Anti-global warmers" have an agenda; and that agenda is to expose the greates fraud ever attempted on the world's population.
Please just spend some time reading the emails from Anglia university.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: global warming on trial? - 12/2/2009 3:21:54 PM
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Trixter
Posts: 119
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
The bottom line is this: there is now incontrovertible evidence that many "scientists" who have been responsible for producing data related to global warming and climate change have changed numbers, made up numbers, erased numbers, and hid numbers from information act requests in order for their final data to show a global warming trend.
"Incontrovertible?" Hardly.
Have you actually seen the evidence to which you refer? If you had, you would have seen no change in numbers, no made up numbers, no erased numbers, no hidden numbers, and no orders to perpetuate a hoax.
These are emails, not scientific reports. They contain oblique references in non-technical vernacular that no one is quite sure what to make of. Such ambiguous email language can then be cherry picked, inferenced, and spun as "proof" that global warming is a hoax. Only someone with a right wing agenda of irresponsibilty would accept such a flimsy case as anything other than another garden variety conspiracy theory.
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Please just spend some time reading the emails from Anglia university.
Right back atcha.
There's nothing in the e-mails that shows that global warming is a hoax. ... There's no funding by nefarious groups. There's no politics in any of these things; nobody from the [United Nations] telling people what to do. There's nothing hidden, no manipulation. It's just scientists talking about science, and they're talking relatively openly as people in private e-mails generally are freer with their thoughts than they would be in a public forum. The few quotes that are being pulled out [are out] of context. People are using language used in science and interpreting it in a completely different way.
< Message edited by Trixter -- 12/2/2009 7:48:14 PM >
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RE: global warming on trial? - 12/3/2009 2:33:01 AM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2618
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Trixter: what flavor is that Kool-Aid again? Lime? Cherry?
If it is Cherry-Lime, I may have to drink it myself. Darn you, Sonic, and your Happy-Hour Cherry-Lime-aids!
_____________________________
"The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'" - Psalms 14:1
"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ" - 2 Cor 10:5
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RE: global warming on trial? - 12/3/2009 7:12:29 PM
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Trixter
Posts: 119
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
Trixter: what flavor is that Kool-Aid again? Lime? Cherry?
I much prefer the raspberry red, lemon yellow, and orange orange of Trix over any flavor of Kool-Aid.
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RE: global warming on trial? - 12/7/2009 3:59:12 PM
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demolay
Posts: 295
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Of course, I can see why Phil has stepped aside, as his email here shows:
my trick to hide the decline
I don't suppose that by "hide the decline" that he may be trying to trick us, is he?
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RE: global warming on trial? - 12/10/2009 2:34:59 PM
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StephenJ
Posts: 453
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I think it's interesting that most of the scientific community, though decrying the apparent subterfuge, still hold that the science points to human caused climate change.
I'm still with them.
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Rock on!
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RE: global warming on trial? - 12/11/2009 5:11:09 PM
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demolay
Posts: 295
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephenJ
I think it's interesting that most of the scientific community, though decrying the apparent subterfuge, still hold that the science points to human caused climate change.
I'm still with them.
Most of the scientific community??? You mean those scientists other than these 31,486 American scientists? Exactly how many scientists make up this majority you imagine? I think you are in a minority position, Stephen, but I'm willing to see you prove me wrong.
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RE: global warming on trial? - 12/11/2009 7:33:13 PM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2618
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephenJ
I think it's interesting that most of the scientific community, though decrying the apparent subterfuge, still hold that the science points to human caused climate change.
I'm still with them.
Why do you find it interesting that SOME scientists still cling faithfully to their religion of climate change?
Evidence and fact never had anything to do with it from the beginning, why would they abandon ship now?
What I find interesting is that a smart, curious guy like you is "still with them".
_____________________________
"The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'" - Psalms 14:1
"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ" - 2 Cor 10:5
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RE: global warming on trial? - 12/12/2009 10:06:22 AM
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Trixter
Posts: 119
Joined: 11/23/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: demolay
Most of the scientific community??? You mean those scientists other than these 31,486 American scientists?
Crackpot hooey: since when do real scientists use petitions to verify/falsify theories?
quote:
Exactly how many scientists make up this majority you imagine?
According to this source, thousands involved with the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), overseen jointly by the United Nations Environment Programme and the World Meteorological Organization, and the National Research Council here in the States.
quote:
but I'm willing to see you prove me wrong
I doubt it. Those like you who deny global warming do so in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
There are those who still believe the world to be flat.
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RE: global warming on trial? - 12/12/2009 3:02:29 PM
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shakezula
Posts: 686
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quote:
ORIGINAL: demolay
Most of the scientific community??? You mean those scientists other than these 31,486 American scientists?
that number really isn't that impressive. if you go deeper into the site, you find a breakdown of what fields the scientists are from. most of them are from areas well outside of climatology. 1/3 are engineers. there's only 454 signees from the relevant sciences - climatology, meteorology, and atmospheric science.
plus the petition is for American scientists only. America is one of the very few countries where you can find global warming skepticism. and most of that skepticism is based on an illogical argument along the lines of:
'changes to fight global warming would be catastrophic for global economies. therefore, global warming cannot be true."
quote:
I think you are in a minority position, Stephen, but I'm willing to see you prove me wrong.
most scientists agree that manmade global warming is happening.
_____________________________
watch out for the oo moo and the blehblehbleh
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RE: global warming on trial? - 12/12/2009 3:02:43 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 766
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From: Florida
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Shabbat shalom, Trixter.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Trixter
quote:
ORIGINAL: demolay
Most of the scientific community??? You mean those scientists other than these 31,486 American scientists?
Crackpot hooey: since when do real scientists use petitions to verify/falsify theories?
quote:
Exactly how many scientists make up this majority you imagine?
According to this source, thousands involved with the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), overseen jointly by the United Nations Environment Programme and the World Meteorological Organization, and the National Research Council here in the States.
quote:
but I'm willing to see you prove me wrong
I doubt it. Those like you who deny global warming do so in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
There are those who still believe the world to be flat.
Why would you be so adamantly FOR the AGW? Every agency needs policing, especially as it grows in size and income, particularly if that income comes out of the average Joe's pocket! Why are we so worried about the 3% that we may or may not be able to affect when the 97% cannot be adequately controlled? Consider just how much polution and carbon emissions and global warming is produced by a single volcano! Maybe we should just turn off the Ring of Fire! Let's start a study....
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: global warming on trial? - 12/12/2009 3:34:27 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 3532
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Why would you be so adamantly FOR the AGW? Every agency needs policing, especially as it grows in size and income, particularly if that income comes out of the average Joe's pocket! Why are we so worried about the 3% that we may or may not be able to affect when the 97% cannot be adequately controlled? Consider just how much polution and carbon emissions and global warming is produced by a single volcano! Maybe we should just turn off the Ring of Fire! Let's start a study....
The study's already been done. Humans emit more than 100x the amount of CO2 that volcanoes do. And volcanoes emit a bunch of other stuff (particularly sulfate aerosols) that actually causes them to have a net-cooling effect on the climate.
http://www.csmonitor.com/Environment/Bright-Green/2009/0129/do-volcanoes-change-the-climate
http://hvo.wr.usgs.gov/volcanowatch/2007/07_02_15.html
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: global warming on trial? - 12/12/2009 5:02:51 PM
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enter_address_here
Posts: 138
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shakezula
quote:
ORIGINAL: demolay
Most of the scientific community??? You mean those scientists other than these 31,486 American scientists?
that number really isn't that impressive. if you go deeper into the site, you find a breakdown of what fields the scientists are from. most of them are from areas well outside of climatology. 1/3 are engineers. there's only 454 signees from the relevant sciences - climatology, meteorology, and atmospheric science.
plus the petition is for American scientists only. America is one of the very few countries where you can find global warming skepticism. and most of that skepticism is based on an illogical argument along the lines of:
'changes to fight global warming would be catastrophic for global economies. therefore, global warming cannot be true."
quote:
I think you are in a minority position, Stephen, but I'm willing to see you prove me wrong.
most scientists agree that manmade global warming is happening.
Same concept goes for the IPCC, you break it down, out of these 'top world scientists'. Very few have PHDs, very few have experience relating to climate. Out of these scientists, though everyone signed the journals reporting that Global Warming Exists, not all worked on the project, and not all even reviewed the end results after signing.
I am a skeptic, because no matter how much people deny it, there is political agenda and bias, and skewed information out there for Global Warming. I did the best research I could on the matter to find a way it makes sense, and it doesn't.
First off, we lack sufficient data, scientists believe the earth has been around for 4.5 billion years, though they have 100 years worth of data to go on to record trends. That's like what? 1/45,000,000 of the necessary data to show what kind of climate ages the world goes through?
Scientists can barely figure out what's right in front of them, how can they accurately say that in the little time sense the industrial age we have actually ruined the earth. Scientists can't figure out why we yawn, or blush from embarrassment, or how the placebo works, these are things they have right in from of them, that they can do nonstop research on and they still don't know why.
As for the emails, it's not fact or proof that the scientists skewed or falsified evidence, that is true, but Trixter is blinding assuming they are misconceptions just as much as others are saying they prove the scientists are full of ****. Though it's commonly known that many of the Scientific Journals the Climate Research Centers put out don't list the data they based the research off of which makes this email seems very suspicious:
'The two MMs have been after the CRU station data for years. If they ever hear there is a Freedom of Information Act now in the U.K., I think I'll delete the file rather than send to anyone. . . . We also have a data protection act, which I will hide behind."
URL: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704888404574547730924988354.html
Also, The Media Matters link Trixter referenced, yeah, I find that to be just as bias as many call out Fox to be.
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RE: global warming on trial? - 12/12/2009 9:27:09 PM
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StephenJ
Posts: 453
Joined: 12/3/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: demolay
quote:
ORIGINAL: StephenJ
I think it's interesting that most of the scientific community, though decrying the apparent subterfuge, still hold that the science points to human caused climate change.
I'm still with them.
Most of the scientific community??? You mean those scientists other than these 31,486 American scientists? Exactly how many scientists make up this majority you imagine? I think you are in a minority position, Stephen, but I'm willing to see you prove me wrong.
Well the IPCC most notably as well as most peer reviewed academic journals, and the major institutions studying it. Trust me it's the overwhelming consensus of the scientific community.
And there are certain markers that seperate human generated co2 from natural sources (radioactivity for example.)
I think Shakezula might be on to something about Climate change critics and the economy. Who stands to loose money if we in the industrialized world suddenly started pumping less gas, eating less meat, and buying less stuff in general?
_____________________________
Rock on!
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RE: global warming on trial? - 12/13/2009 1:29:58 AM
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shakezula
Posts: 686
Joined: 3/9/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephenJ
I think Shakezula might be on to something about Climate change critics and the economy. Who stands to loose money if we in the industrialized world suddenly started pumping less gas, eating less meat, and buying less stuff in general?
as i see it, we're at a crossroads that, economically speaking, is really no different than the industrial revolution or the digital revolution. the mantra in business is "change with the times or die." some businesses and services can't change, so they must die because they are no longer relevant. lots of people lost their jobs when the horse and carriage services went out of business. or when trains became obsolete. or when telephone operators and record stores were no longer needed.
this time, the industries on the chopping block are energy companies. but they have the power and resources to hop on the green energy bandwagon and run with it. the companies that can't adapt will die. the companies that try to fight global warming and convince the government to protect them from change will die more slowly, but they will still die. fighting global warming isn't about science. it's about trying to preserve this moment in our economic history so we don't ever have to adapt or change. the oil companies want it to be the year 2000 forever and ever. but if we don't adapt to the changing world around us, we will lose sway as an economic force in the world.
there is plenty of room to adapt. yes, people will lose their current jobs, but there is plenty of opportunity for uncharted markets to open up. this is the way change happens. our economy didn't collapse when the digital revolution killed off hundreds if not thousands of businesses. it boomed, because we stood back and let the markets evolve to match changing consumer demands.
_____________________________
watch out for the oo moo and the blehblehbleh
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RE: global warming on trial? - 12/13/2009 9:09:06 AM
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Trixter
Posts: 119
Joined: 11/23/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Why would you be so adamantly FOR the AGW?
Do you mean Anthropogenic Global Warming? I'm not for it. We should take steps to reverse it.
quote:
Every agency needs policing, especially as it grows in size and income, particularly if that income comes out of the average Joe's pocket!
. . . Huh?
quote:
Why are we so worried about the 3% that we may or may not be able to affect when the 97% cannot be adequately controlled?
. . . Source for these figures?
quote:
Consider just how much polution and carbon emissions and global warming is produced by a single volcano!
So? Is that the same thing as Anthropogenic Global Warming? Does a volcano erupt continuously for decades and centuries?
Let's get real here.
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RE: global warming on trial? - 12/14/2009 9:16:03 AM
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demolay
Posts: 295
Joined: 10/31/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Trixter
quote:
ORIGINAL: demolay
Most of the scientific community??? You mean those scientists other than these 31,486 American scientists?
Crackpot hooey: since when do real scientists use petitions to verify/falsify theories?
Since the popular media started portraying every issue's moral right or wrongness based upon polls rather than God's Word. Scientists are not dummies, they know this is more a political issue than a scientific one, and political issues involve consensus.
Even after your post, there were 2 more occurances of "most scientists agree" and "overwhelming consensus". There's that "most" word again. Just last night on the Huckabee show on Fox, a woman claimed the scientists who disbelieve AGW are "fewer than Tiger's mistresses". I and others claim that is a lie. I've provided numbers to back my claim. Where are yours? Your majority is a MYTH until you provide evidence otherwise!
quote:
quote:
Exactly how many scientists make up this majority you imagine?
According to this source, thousands involved with the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), overseen jointly by the United Nations Environment Programme and the World Meteorological Organization, and the National Research Council here in the States.
Huh? You didn't say anything here. Nonetheless, I scanned your reference for the letter sequence "thousand", and it came back "not found". Your sentence fragment is itself not true.
quote:
quote:
but I'm willing to see you prove me wrong
I doubt it. Those like you who deny global warming do so in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
There are those who still believe the world to be flat.
If you, StephenJ, or shakezula can't provide numbers, I surely won't believe "most". 31,486 is a LOT of scientists that say AGW is huey. 
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RE: global warming on trial? - 12/14/2009 9:40:05 AM
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demolay
Posts: 295
Joined: 10/31/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: enter_address_here
'The two MMs have been after the CRU station data for years. If they ever hear there is a Freedom of Information Act now in the U.K., I think I'll delete the file rather than send to anyone. . . . We also have a data protection act, which I will hide behind."
URL: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704888404574547730924988354.html
Good article. I love this part:
quote:
The "two MMs" are almost certainly Stephen McIntyre and Ross McKitrick, two Canadians who have devoted years to seeking the raw data and codes used in climate graphs and models, then fact-checking the published conclusions—a painstaking task that strikes us as a public and scientific service.
So, StephenJ, how can you say the IPCC conclusions are "peer reviewed" when qualified peers who want to do a review are stonewalled in getting the data? AND NOW CRU SAYS THEY LOST THE DATA, JUST AS PHIL JONES SAID HE WOULD DO IN THE ABOVE EMAIL.
Good summary here
This is essentially saying, "Hey, we can't show you evidence that the Earth is warming, just trust us!"
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