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Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/15/2010 1:54:49 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 766
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, everyone.
Some of you are already aware that my premise is that half of Dani'el's 70th week (Dan. 9:24-27) is already over, having been fulfilled in the ministry of Yeshua` haMashiach. The second half of the week, which is called by some the "Great Tribulation" and is known as "1260 days" (Rev. 11:3; 12:6) or "42 months" (Rev. 11:2; 13:5) or "a time, times, and a half of a time," (Rev. 12:14) is yet to be fulfilled (as Revelation predicts).
I believe this theory is not only biblically sound, but explains much more about the various prophecies in the Bible than do the other points of view.
With this theory, it is impossible for me to be truly pretrib, midtrib, prewrath, or even posttrib. It especially doesn't make me preterist because I still interpret Revelation as a book about future events! In fact, to count me as a "partial preterist" can only be done by how I interpret the Olivet Discourse (which is where I spun off from pretrib).
So, if I have the permission of the moderator, I would like to open this thread up for as much as you'd like to throw at the idea. Whether it stands or falls, no personal animosity will be directed at anyone. I would just like to speed up the learning process. If I can be convinced that it's a wrong theory, then it won't take the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) as long through you all to show me that my opinions are baseless.
All I ask is that you are biblical in your approach and use ONLY the Scriptures (not theological positions) to convince me. If a theological position must be introduced for a partial support, please quote the Scriptures that support the theological position.
Thank you for what is to come, and with that, let the fun begin!
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
Sorry for the edit. (I can't believe I just split an infinitive!)
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/15/2010 3:33:33 PM
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tsnody2001
Posts: 1019
Joined: 4/29/2008
From: Terre Haute, IN
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What justifies the HUGE GAP between the first half of the week (Jesus' ministry) and the second half of the week, known as the Great Tribulation? I would like to better understand your position before I either agree or disagree with it.
_____________________________
Until He Returns (Rev. 2:17),
Travis
During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ~George Orwell
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/15/2010 10:52:30 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1203
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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I’m not sure that it really matters one way or the other; if there is a full 7 years to play out we will not understand that it has begun until the middle part of the week anyway.
Not saying I don’t want to know but I’m not sure there is an answer because one can make a compelling argument both way.
But this is just my opinion.
In Messiah,
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/16/2010 2:34:29 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 766
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shabbat shalom, Battyus.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Battyus
Shalom Roy,
...
So, about your view:
quote:
... I probably lean more toward posttribulational rapturism, but not entirely.
With the Post-tribulational rapture view I see 3 major problems:
1. If the rapture happens after the tribulation, then at that time
-all believers will be raptured and will be given glorified bodies.
-all non believers will be killed as Rev 19:21 states
This leaves no people on Earth in their Phisycal bodies alive. This means that there will be nobody to repopulate the Earth during the Millenium.
Actually, while all believers will be raptured and given glorified bodies, not all unbelievers will be killed. Rev. 19:21 is part of Rev. 19:17-21:
Rev 19:17-21
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great."
19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.
NIV
Therefore, the "rest of them" is not talking about all the people all over the earth; it's talking about those who invaded Isra'el for the final battle for Isra'el and Yerushalayim. It does NOT mean that "all unbelievers will be killed."
Furthermore, I do believe that it is slightly before the return of the Messiah to the ground in Isra'el that all of us believers will be given glorified bodies and then raptured. The whole point of the rapture is to get us to Isra'el with the returned Messiah to rescue (save) Isra'el from the marauders and slavers, murderers and rapists. Once again, the Messiah sends out His messengers to retrieve those who are His and fly them to Isra'el quickly! It's a mass transit system!
quote:
ORIGINAL: Battyus
2. If the rapture happens after the tribulation, then
-the imminence of the Lord's coming is denied:
Most people would know when Jesus' coming is going to happen once the events of the tribulation start. Jesus would no longer be able to "come as a thief" as a lot of people would wait for him at Armageddon.
No! This is a common claim, but by analogy, just as we can know approximately when a baby will be born and not know the exact day or the exact hour when the birth will happen, in the same way we can know approximately when Yeshua` will return without knowing the exact day or the hour! And, by the time they see the Messiah coming, there'd be no time! Believers won't need to be waiting at Har-Megiddown (since they'll be coming by "air mail"), and unbelievers won't believe He'll be coming! Those who desire the conquest of Isra'el will think themselves relatively unchallenged.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Battyus
3. If the rapture happens after the tribulation, then
-Our "blessed hope" to look forward would not be the "glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ", but to look forward for the tribulation events to start, which by no means look pretty. (Titus 2:13)
Most of the believers who believe in the "glorious appearing of the great Elohiym and our Rescuer Yeshua` haMashiach" have a strange sense of what to be expecting from the tribulation events! In every verse that talks about the "hope" ("assurance") of the resurrection also talk about the patience needed to wait for the day. If the events of the tribulation are between our current position in time and the second coming of the Messiah, we are instructed to look beyond the troubles that we may or may not have to endure to get through to the blessed hope. Thus, our hope is not the tribulation events, but beyond those to the actual coming of Yeshua` and the associated resurrection and the rapture to follow.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Battyus
quote:
My view is distinctly different than the traditional posttrib position, particularly in the sense that I no longer believe that the whole 7-year period of Dani'el's 70th seven is still in the future. As to which verses support it, where do I begin? The key is found (IMO) within the definitions of certain words. I see. But on Dec 26th you said that "y'all shouldn't get so hung up on terminology and labels". So should we or shouldn't we? :)
quote:
Post #35 of this thread:
You know, y'all shouldn't get so hung up on terminology and labels. Labels like "tribulation" and "wrath" and "Day of the Lord" are your undoing.
Okay, here's the scoop: When I was talking about "getting hung up on terminology and labels," I was talking about the labels that are so frequently bantied about, such as "tribulation," "great tribulation," the "Antichrist," "rapture," "millennial kingdom," etc. These labels are LOCKED INTO THE MINDS of those who have constantly been bombarded with the teachings of a particular viewpoint. Be it the way that a term or label is used or the added words, the term or label is not quite the same as the Scriptures introduced them.
What I was talking about when I said, "The key is found within the definitions of certain words," I was talking about the various "holy" words that need better definitions for better understanding:
holy word --> Greek word --> meaning of the Greek word
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"heaven" --> "ouranos" --> the "sky" or the "atmosphere"
"church" --> "ekkleesia" --> the "called out [group]"
"preach" --> keerussoo" --> to "herald"
"angel" --> "aggelos" --> "messenger"
"rapture up" --> "harpazoo" --> "snatch away"
"millennium" --> "chilia etee" --> "a thousand years"
"spirit" --> "pneuma" --> "wind; forceful breath"
"soul" --> "psuchee" --> "animated being; one who breathes"
etc.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Battyus
Continuing with your view:
quote:
I currently believe that half of the week is already gone, fulfilled in the ministry of Yeshua` haMashiach. One can find that from a true interpretation of Dani'el 9:24-27; Matthew 23:37-39; Hebrews 9:1-10:22 in conjunction with Matthew 27:50-53; and Acts 1:9-11. See, Dani'el 9:24-27 is usually interpreted as though the "Antichrist" will be the one to make a covenant for one week (7 years) that will be broken in the middle of the week (3.5 years). But, through the grammar of English and of Hebrew, the one who makes the covenant is not the "prince that shall come," but is the "Messiah" of verse 26! This fact, in turn, strengthens my interpretation of Matthew 23:37-39.
I see the reason why you would rather say that the word "He" in verse 27 refers to the "Messiah" rather than to the "Antichrist". I think we can agree that verse 27 does not specifically designates who it is talking about. In a case like this I always compare the difficult verse to other verses and see how they interpret it. (I guess you do the same)
So, let's take a look at other scriptures in light of your 2 statements in which you say:
-The first half of Daniel's 70th week is already gone
-In Daniel 9:27 it is the Messiah who makes the covenant rather than the Antichrist.
In this case I see the following problems:
1. Daniel's 70th week according to your view is at least 2000 years long:
This would be inconsistent with Daniel 9:24 which says "Seventy weeks are determined". 69 of of the 70 weeks were 7 years long each.
My Question is: What scripture would back up that the 70th week drags out to be more than 2000 years long?
What's the difference between having the gap between the 69th week and the 70th week about 2000 years long (pretrib) or having the gap between the 69.5th week and the last half of the 70th week? Couldn't one consider that either the 69th week ended 2000 years too late or that the 70th week began 2000 years too early? The Scripture that backs up the GAP is not given for the pretrib, posttrib, or prewrath positions; I have Matthew 23:37-39 as the reason for the GAP! Yeshua` repaid their rejection of His offer to be their King with the desolation they were about to suffer for almost 2000 years.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Battyus
2. If the first half of Daniel's 70th week is already gone, then according to Revelation the 7 Seals must have been opened already:
As I see the Seals, they do correspond to the coming of Antichrist and then to the battle of Gog and Magog (Ezekiel 38-39 chapters).
See the following link to the Sequential order of events in the Book of Revelation.
My question is: If the seals were already opened, then when and where in history was the Battle of Gog and Magog according to your view?
Or if you say that the battle of Gog and Magog does not correspond to the Seals, then where do you put this battle in the book of Revelation?
Well, the problem is in your words, "As I see the Seals." That's interjecting your INTERPRETATION of the seven seals on the actual opening of the seals and is probably based on the idea that Rev. 4:1 is talking about the "rapture." But, if you will notice, ...
Rev 4:1
4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
KJV
... the words are directed to Yochanan ONLY and nothing else in this verse even remotely suggests that this might be when ALL of the saints are taken up!
However, if Revelation 4:1 is NOT the rapture, then the opening of the seven seals does not necessarily have a triggering event and therefore may begin at any time. Furthermore, there is no definitive need for the rider of the white horse to be the Antichrist (as some have suggested)! Nothing in the text requires that! So, there's nothing to say that the opening of the seals is still in the future or may have started already!
quote:
ORIGINAL: Battyus
3. If In Daniel 9:27 it is the Messiah who makes the covenant rather than the Antichrist:
Then the covenant that Jesus makes is going to be for 1 week (7 Years to be consistent with Daniel 9:24).
According to Luk 22:20, Heb 8:13; 9:15 Jesus did make a covenant while He was on Earth, but that covenant is not for 7 years, but forever!
My question: What Kind of a covenant did Jesus make while he was here on Earth that lasts for 7 years?
The covenant was the one that all the kings made with the subjects of Isra'el AND the covenant that God made with Daviyd and his house:
2 Sam 5:3-4
3 So all the elders of Israel came to the king to Hebron; and king David made a league (Hebrew: b'rit) with them in Hebron before the Lord: and they anointed David king over Israel.
4 David was thirty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned forty years.
KJV
2 Sam 23:1-5
1 Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said,
2 The Spirit of the Lord spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.
3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.
4 And he shall be as the light of the morning, when the sun riseth, even a morning without clouds; as the tender grass springing out of the earth by clear shining after rain.
5 Although my house be not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant (Hebrew: b'rit), ordered in all things, and sure: for this is all my salvation, and all my desire, although he make it not to grow.
KJV
2 Chron 13:4-5
4 And Abijah stood up upon mount Zemaraim, which is in mount Ephraim, and said, Hear me, thou Jeroboam, and all Israel;
5 Ought ye not to know that the Lord God of Israel gave the kingdom over Israel to David for ever, even to him and to his sons by a covenant of salt?
KJV
2 Chron 6:13-17
13 For Solomon had made a brasen scaffold, of five cubits long, and five cubits broad, and three cubits high, and had set it in the midst of the court: and upon it he stood, and kneeled down upon his knees before all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven,
14 And said, O Lord God of Israel, there is no God like thee in the heaven, nor in the earth; which keepest covenant, and shewest mercy unto thy servants, that walk before thee with all their hearts:
15 Thou which hast kept with thy servant David my father that which thou hast promised him; and spakest with thy mouth, and hast fulfilled it with thine hand, as it is this day.
16 Now therefore, O Lord God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that which thou hast promised him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit upon the throne of Israel; yet so that thy children take heed to their way to walk in my law, as thou hast walked before me.
17 Now then, O Lord God of Israel, let thy word be verified, which thou hast spoken unto thy servant David.
KJV
The covenant is an agreement that Daviyd made with Isra'el and that God made with Daviyd and all His children, right down the line to Yeshua`!
quote:
ORIGINAL: Battyus
4. If In Daniel 9:27 it is the Messiah who makes the covenant rather than the Antichrist:
Then according to the same verse "in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease". So according to you Jesus had the sacrifice and the oblation to cease when he was on Earth. This can not be true as the sacrifice and the oblation continued up until AD70. Keep in mind that, you said: "half of the week is already gone, fulfilled in the ministry of Yeshua` haMashiach"
My question, what scripture backs up the continuation of the sacrifices for ~40 more years?
There is NONE! To the contrary, we have evidence in Matthew 27:50-53 ...
Matt 27:50-53
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
KJV
... coupled with the explanation of the author of Hebrews:
Heb 10:5-22
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
KJV
Thus, no matter how they sacrificed animals from the time of the death of Yeshua` to 70 A.D., they were MEANINGLESS BUTCHERING of animals, no longer capable of atonement! In fact, there is an account that says that the red ribbon tied to the escape goat (Lev. 16), which supernaturally used to turn white with the completion of the sacrifice, remained red during those 40 years!
See, they were not truly sacrifices if the LORD of the sacrifices did not accept them as such! They were just going through the vain motions.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Battyus
5. Your interpretation of Matthew 23:37-39:
I see why you would feel good about your interpretation of Matthew 23:37-39 if the Messiah is the one who in Dan 9:27 "causes the sacrifice and the oblation to cease".
My questions:
-In Matthew 23:37-39 Jesus clearly addresses Jerusalem, which is "the Jewish people". So if according to you Matthew 23:37-39 and Daniel 9:27 are parallel passages, then Jesus made the covenant in Dan 9:27 only with Israel. However according to Daniel 9:27 the covenant is made with Many not only with Israel. How do you explain this discrepancy?
Simple. This is NOT the New Covenant (which, by the way, was to be made with the children of Isra'el) and was extended to the Goyim (the Gentiles); this is the Davidic Covenant through which God promised there would always be one of Daviyd's line to sit upon the throne! The seven years, is reminiscent of the first seven years of Daviyd's kingdom when He reigned from Hevrown (Hebron). Those were the years He was supposed to reign over the tribe of Y'hudah (as did Daviyd haMelekh). BUT, they REJECTED HIM as their King!
quote:
ORIGINAL: Battyus
-Matthew 23:39 says "Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.". So "Israel" will not see Jesus again until they will recognize that He is the Messiah. Which event in Revelation describes "Israel"'s recognition of Jesus as Messiah?
So, this is what I think in a nutshell about the view you've presented. :)
I'm truly curious how will you answer the questions above!
May God bless your study time!
Battyus
Revelation 19:6-9 which reflect the prophecy of Z'kharyahu:
Rev 19:6-16
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
KJV
Zech 12:7-14
7 "The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem's inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. 8 On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the Angel of the Lord going before them. 9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.
10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be great, like the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13 the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives.
NIV
The huge crowd that Yochanan hears in verse 6 is NOT necessarily only in the sky, and I believe that it includes Isra'el as well. There are a few things that we need to recognize:
First, the Jews will look upon the Messiah and recognize Him!
Second, they will mourn for Him as an only son or as a firstborn. These families mentioned in verses 12 and 13 are LISTED IN THE GENEALOGY of Luke 3! They are His FAMILY, His grandfathers and grandmothers, with however many "greats!" This also tells us that the resurrection in Isra'el has already happened, because they are VERTICALLY linked in the family tree.
Third, it is important to note that chapter 12 in Z'kharyahu's prophecy occurs BEFORE the events of chapter 14, just as verses 6-7 in Rev. 19 happen BEFORE verses 11-21.
That's a start. Hope this will eventually make sense to you, whether it does now or not.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/16/2010 3:08:24 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 766
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, Travis!
quote:
ORIGINAL: tsnody2001
What justifies the HUGE GAP between the first half of the week (Jesus' ministry) and the second half of the week, known as the Great Tribulation? I would like to better understand your position before I either agree or disagree with it.
Well, what justified the HUGE GAP between the 69 weeks and the 70th week? I'll repeat what I told Battyus:
quote:
What's the difference between having the gap between the 69th week and the 70th week about 2000 years long (pretrib) or having the gap between the 69.5th week and the last half of the 70th week? Couldn't one consider that either the 69th week ended 2000 years too late or that the 70th week began 2000 years too early? The Scripture that backs up the GAP is not given for the pretrib, posttrib, or prewrath positions; I have Matthew 23:37-39 as the reason for the GAP! Yeshua` repaid their rejection of His offer to be their King with the desolation they were about to suffer for almost 2000 years.
Matt 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV
The Hebrew of this phrase quoted from Psalm 118:26 is "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH." A literal, word-for-word translation is "Happy the-comer in-name [of] YHVH." While it does translate to "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the LORD," or "Happy is he who comes in the name of the LORD," we need to recognize a few things about this Hebrew phrase:
First, the words "Baruwk haba'" are the words that Jews use to WELCOME someone into their homes! In fact, the words in plural are above their Tel-Aviv airport terminal, welcoming the visitors to Isra'el.
Second, "in the name of" means "on the authority of."
Third, the name of God, "YHVH" transliterated from the Hebrew letters, is the Name revealed to Moshe at the burning bush! In poetic form, it is often shortened to "YAH," although most of the time, the Name is never pronounced by Jews; they will either say "haShem" or "ADONAI," meaning respectively 'the Name" or "[the] LORD," to avoid using His Name in vain (Ex. 20:7). They even put the vowel pointing for "Adonai" among the letters (all Hebrew letters are consonants) to remind themselves to say "ADONAI," rather than try to pronounce it. This was why the scholars translated the Name as "Jahovah" or "Jehovah" in the early versions of the English Bible. "J" used to have the "Y" sound in English as it does in German today.
Thus, the phrase can also be rendered, "Welcome to the One who comes on the authority of YAH!" Therefore, when they can WELCOME Him back as the Representative of YAH, the Mashiach of YAH, the Messiah of YAH, THEN He will return and they will be allowed to see Him again. So, you see? HE put the gap within the 70 weeks of Dani'el because of their abomination of rejecting Him as YAH'S Anointed and as their King!
Hope this helped!
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/16/2010 12:44:35 PM
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tsnody2001
Posts: 1019
Joined: 4/29/2008
From: Terre Haute, IN
Status: offline
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Thank you Roy for all your posts here! I have to say that I agree with them.
I still do not quite understand the GAP between the first and second half of the 70th week, but your most recent post here helped. I mean I understand your reasoning, but wouldn't that take the sovereignty of God out of His hands and make Him dependent on the actions of Israel?
I will take it to the Lord in prayer and ask for Him to help me understand.
quote:
The huge crowd that Yochanan hears in verse 6 is NOT necessarily only in the sky, and I believe that it includes Isra'el as well. There are a few things that we need to recognize:
First, the Jews will look upon the Messiah and recognize Him!
Second, they will mourn for Him as an only son or as a firstborn. These families mentioned in verses 12 and 13 are LISTED IN THE GENEALOGY of Luke 3! They are His FAMILY, His grandfathers and grandmothers, with however many "greats!" This also tells us that the resurrection in Isra'el has already happened, because they are VERTICALLY linked in the family tree.
Third, it is important to note that chapter 12 in Z'kharyahu's prophecy occurs BEFORE the events of chapter 14, just as verses 6-7 in Rev. 19 happen BEFORE verses 11-21.
Are you referring to l Thessalonians 4:16-18 here? The dead in Christ will rise first? I'm not trying to nit-pick you with question. I am only trying to understand where you are coming from, or at times what I just don't understand. So please forgive me if my first five posts or so are questions and not really contributing to the discussion.
Jesus bless you!
_____________________________
Until He Returns (Rev. 2:17),
Travis
During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ~George Orwell
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/16/2010 1:46:15 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1203
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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quote:
The huge crowd that Yochanan hears in verse 6 is NOT necessarily only in the sky, and I believe that it includes Isra'el as well. There are a few things that we need to recognize:
By all Israel I assume that you are talking about Judah and Ephraim combined into one stick from Ezekiel 37?
In Messiah,
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/16/2010 2:25:59 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1828
Status: offline
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quote:
Some of you are already aware that my premise is that half of Dani'el's 70th week (Dan. 9:24-27) is already over, having been fulfilled in the ministry of Yeshua` haMashiach.
It's truly amazing how someone can get so messed up in their thinking.
The entire 70th week of Daniel is connected with the Antichrist, not the Lord Jesus Christ. See Daniel 9:27. Messiah was "cut off" or crucified at the end of the 69th week, and it can be (and has been) calculated to the day.
Therefore one has to really misinterpret and reinterpret Scripture to arrive at this totally untenable conclusion. And a multitude of words does not necessarily establish a fallacy. In fact it is a red flag.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/16/2010 2:29:06 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1828
Status: offline
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quote:
I still do not quite understand the GAP between the first and second half of the 70th week
There is no gap if you take all the prophecies into account. The first half of the 70th week is followed immediately by the second. Study the Revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ.
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/16/2010 2:41:44 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 766
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shabbat shalom, Travis.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tsnody2001
...
I still do not quite understand the GAP between the first and second half of the 70th week, but your most recent post here helped. I mean I understand your reasoning, but wouldn't that take the sovereignty of God out of His hands and make Him dependent on the actions of Israel?
I will take it to the Lord in prayer and ask for Him to help me understand.
I would not want it any other way! Actually, no, God is always in control, despite the free will He has given to human beings, especially in Isra'el's case. There was a little song we used to sing years ago. I can't quite remember the actual title, but it may be in the last line of the chorus: The chorus went something like this:
God does not compel us to go. Oh, no!
God does not compel us to go.
He does not compel us to go 'gainst our will,
But He sure makes us willing to go!
And I remember one of the verses talking about the hornets that drove out the inhabitants of the Land of Isra'el ahead of the children of Isra'el!
Ex 23:28-30
28 And I will send hornets before thee, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before thee.
29 I will not drive them out from before thee in one year; lest the land become desolate, and the beast of the field multiply against thee.
30 By little and little I will drive them out from before thee, until thou be increased, and inherit the land.
KJV
The message was "Although God will not compel you against your will, He sure can make us WILLING to do what He wishes!"
Look at how patient God has been with the Jews! When they had the Romans crucify Yeshua`, they cried out, "Let His blood be upon us and upon our children!" (Matt. 27:25) So, they got their wish! For about 1,980 years now, they have suffered for what they did to the Messiah, the Christ. Although it was not a "Christian" thing to do, those who called themselves "Christians" chased them and hounded them from village to village and from town to town and from city to city and even from country to country all across Russia and Europe, calling them "Christ killers!" They've been hounded, chased, imprisoned, had their property and lands confiscated, persecuted, and killed, but by God's Grace, never too much in one place! Even the horrors and atrocities of the Holocaust were claimed (at least at first) in the name of Christ!
Now, however, things have been changing, things are beginning to turn around! Through the course of history, Christians have begun to change their attitudes toward the Jews and have recognized both their importance to prophecy and their protection by God throughout the purges, pogroms, inquisitions, and persecutions. They initially sent them missionaries through organizations like "Jews for Jesus." Then, the "Messianic Jews" (Jews who believe that Yeshua` was and is indeed the Messiah sent to them by ADONAI) began to take the message deeper into the Jewish circles and even to the Land of Isra'el (without all the baggage that Christians through two millennia have added to the message of the Gospel).
So, God, in the fulness of time, will end their suffering by driving them back to Himself and to His Son, His Messiah, Yeshua`, but it will still be in HIS timing because the other factor is "until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled" (Luke 21:24). And, although these two points in time are not synonymous, they are linked.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tsnody2001
quote:
The huge crowd that Yochanan hears in verse 6 is NOT necessarily only in the sky, and I believe that it includes Isra'el as well. There are a few things that we need to recognize:
First, the Jews will look upon the Messiah and recognize Him!
Second, they will mourn for Him as an only son or as a firstborn. These families mentioned in verses 12 and 13 are LISTED IN THE GENEALOGY of Luke 3! They are His FAMILY, His grandfathers and grandmothers, with however many "greats!" This also tells us that the resurrection in Isra'el has already happened, because they are VERTICALLY linked in the family tree.
Third, it is important to note that chapter 12 in Z'kharyahu's prophecy occurs BEFORE the events of chapter 14, just as verses 6-7 in Rev. 19 happen BEFORE verses 11-21.
Are you referring to l Thessalonians 4:16-18 here? The dead in Christ will rise first? I'm not trying to nit-pick you with question. I am only trying to understand where you are coming from, or at times what I just don't understand. So please forgive me if my first five posts or so are questions and not really contributing to the discussion.
Jesus bless you!
Are you kidding? LOL! I WANT questions! That was my purpose for taking the risk in starting this thread! I could become INUNDATED with questions before it's run its course. No, I don't mind your questions; bring 'em on! That's how we learn! If I can answer them within the statements of this model, I will. If I can't, then maybe the model still needs "tweeking" or maybe I'll have to "chuck the whole thing and start over from scratch!" (I've done that before.)
Yes, this resurrection also includes the passage from I Thessalonians 4:13-18 as well as I Corinthians 15:35-57. It is also as mentioned briefly in the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; and Luke 21:25-28).
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/16/2010 4:31:40 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 766
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shabbat shalom, Bob!
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
quote:
The huge crowd that Yochanan hears in verse 6 is NOT necessarily only in the sky, and I believe that it includes Isra'el as well. There are a few things that we need to recognize:
By all Israel I assume that you are talking about Judah and Ephraim combined into one stick from Ezekiel 37?
In Messiah,
Bob
Absolutely! All who are to receive new bodies in the resurrection are included, from all of the twelve tribes (or thirteen, depending on your point of view), as well as the Goyim who are grafted into the Olive Tree.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/17/2010 2:42:18 AM
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Battyus
Posts: 12
Joined: 1/11/2010
Status: offline
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Shalom Roy,
I see that you are taking some heat, so I'll try to be gentle :)
With that said, I'd like to compliment you on your request at the beginning of the thread, that I would like to call RULE#1, so I can obey it and refer back to it later on:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
All I ask is that you are biblical in your approach and use ONLY the Scriptures (not theological positions) to convince me. If a theological position must be introduced for a partial support, please quote the Scriptures that support the theological position.
Subject #1 (talking about who will enter into the Millennium in their Physical bodies)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Actually, while all believers will be raptured and given glorified bodies, not all unbelievers will be killed. Rev. 19:21 is part of Rev. 19:17-21:
Therefore, the "rest of them" is not talking about all the people all over the earth; it's talking about those who invaded Isra'el for the final battle for Isra'el and Yerushalayim. It does NOT mean that "all unbelievers will be killed."
According to you then the people who will enter into the Millenium in their physical bodies will be the unbelievers. Keep in mind that the unbelievers during the Tribulation will get the mark of the Beast (666)(Rev 13:15-17)
So in your opinion Jesus during the Millennium will reign over the people who have the 666 mark on them. If this were true, then the Bible would lie in Rev 14-9:10 where it clearly states what happens to those who accept the mark:
"If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10. The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb"
According to Scripture the people with the 666 mark are to be tormented in the presence of the Lamb. Your view says the people with the 666 mark will be the citizens of Jesus' Earthly Kingdom. Can you explain this difference between the Bible and your view?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Furthermore, I do believe that it is slightly before the return of the Messiah to the ground in Isra'el that all of us believers will be given glorified bodies and then raptured. The whole point of the rapture is to get us to Isra'el with the returned Messiah to rescue (save) Isra'el from the marauders and slavers, murderers and rapists. Once again, the Messiah sends out His messengers to retrieve those who are His and fly them to Isra'el quickly! It's a mass transit system!
OK, let's invoke RULE#1: Please quote scripture that tells, that the "whole point of the rapture is to get us to Isra'el".
I say, that according to the Bible the "whole point of the rapture is":
To give the saved immortal bodies, so they can be with the Lord forever and thus be saved from the Tribulation:
"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" (1Cor 15:53)
"so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1Thes 4:17)
"I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev 3:10)
Subject #2 (Question of imminence)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
No! This is a common claim, but by analogy, just as we can know approximately when a baby will be born and not know the exact day or the exact hour when the birth will happen, in the same way we can know approximately when Yeshua` will return without knowing the exact day or the hour! And, by the time they see the Messiah coming, there'd be no time! Believers won't need to be waiting at Har-Megiddown (since they'll be coming by "air mail"), and unbelievers won't believe He'll be coming! Those who desire the conquest of Isra'el will think themselves relatively unchallenged.
This question boils down to the point of taking the terms like 1260 days, 42 months, 3.5 years etc. literally or spiritually.
I interpret ALL of them literally, therefore I can say that exactly 1290 days after "the daily sacrifice shall be taken away" will be the Day of Jesus' return:
"And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days." Daniel 12:11
If you say, that I can not know the day of Jesus' coming from the day when the sacrifice shall be taken away, then you must interpret ALL of the verses below spiritually. In this case, I ask you to explain the meaning of the verses below. And please remember: they are all closely related because of the time elements in them:
"... a time and times and the dividing of time" (Daniel 7:25)
"Seventy weeks ..." (Daniel 9:24)
"seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks" (Daniel 9:25)
"threescore and two weeks" (Daniel 9:26)
"... one week: and in the midst of the week ..." (Daniel 9:27)
"... for a time, times, and an half" (Rev 12:7)
"... there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days" (Daniel 12:11)
"...thousand three hundred and five and thirty days" (Daniel 12:12)
"... forty and two months" (Rev 11:2)
"... thousand two hundred and threescore days" (Rev 11:3)
"... thousand two hundred and threescore days" (Rev 12:6)
"... a time, and times, and half a time" (Rev 12:14)
"... forty and two months" (Rev 13:5)
Subject #3 (What is our blessed hope?)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Most of the believers who believe in the "glorious appearing of the great Elohiym and our Rescuer Yeshua` haMashiach" have a strange sense of what to be expecting from the tribulation events! In every verse that talks about the "hope" ("assurance") of the resurrection also talk about the patience needed to wait for the day. If the events of the tribulation are between our current position in time and the second coming of the Messiah, we are instructed to look beyond the troubles that we may or may not have to endure to get through to the blessed hope. Thus, our hope is not the tribulation events, but beyond those to the actual coming of Yeshua` and the associated resurrection and the rapture to follow.
In light of your opinion, please explain the meaning of the following verse:
"I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev 3:10)
Subject #4 (Satirical question about should we or shouldn't we get so hung up on terminology)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Okay, here's the scoop: When I was talking about "getting hung up on terminology and labels," I was talking about the labels that are so frequently bantied about, such as "tribulation," "great tribulation," the "Antichrist," "rapture," "millennial kingdom," etc. These labels are LOCKED INTO THE MINDS of those who have constantly been bombarded with the teachings of a particular viewpoint. Be it the way that a term or label is used or the added words, the term or label is not quite the same as the Scriptures introduced them.
I agree with you to go back to Hebrew and Greek to define the meaning of the words. Thanks for clearing up how you meant your sentence. This was just a funny question :)
Subject #5 (GAP between the 69th and 70th week or GAP between the first and second half of the 70th week)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
What's the difference between having the gap between the 69th week and the 70th week about 2000 years long (pretrib) or having the gap between the 69.5th week and the last half of the 70th week? Couldn't one consider that either the 69th week ended 2000 years too late or that the 70th week began 2000 years too early? The Scripture that backs up the GAP is not given for the pretrib, posttrib, or prewrath positions; I have Matthew 23:37-39 as the reason for the GAP! Yeshua` repaid their rejection of His offer to be their King with the desolation they were about to suffer for almost 2000 years.
The difference is whether or not scripture supports it or not:
Daniel said "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city". 69 out of the 70 weeks were 7 years long each. This is historical fact, can not be denied.
Daniel then states that "the Messiah will be cut off" then a whole bunch of events in verse 26.
Then he says "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week"
It is Daniel himself who inserts the Gap between the 69th and 70th weeks. I see no scriptural support at all for a 2000+ year long 70th week. If you do, then please remember RULE#1 and provide chapter and verse that supports your idea.
Subject #6 (When are the Seals opened: first or second half of the Tribulation. Also where is the Battle of Gog and Magog in Revelation)
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Battyus
2. If the first half of Daniel's 70th week is already gone, then according to Revelation the 7 Seals must have been opened already:
As I see the Seals, they do correspond to the coming of Antichrist and then to the battle of Gog and Magog (Ezekiel 38-39 chapters).
See the following link to the Sequential order of events in the Book of Revelation.
My question is: If the seals were already opened, then when and where in history was the Battle of Gog and Magog according to your view?
Or if you say that the battle of Gog and Magog does not correspond to the Seals, then where do you put this battle in the book of Revelation?
Well, the problem is in your words, "As I see the Seals." That's interjecting your INTERPRETATION of the seven seals on the actual opening of the seals and is probably based on the idea that Rev. 4:1 is talking about the "rapture." But, if you will notice, ...
Rev 4:1
4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
KJV
... the words are directed to Yochanan ONLY and nothing else in this verse even remotely suggests that this might be when ALL of the saints are taken up!
However, if Revelation 4:1 is NOT the rapture, then the opening of the seven seals does not necessarily have a triggering event and therefore may begin at any time. Furthermore, there is no definitive need for the rider of the white horse to be the Antichrist (as some have suggested)! Nothing in the text requires that! So, there's nothing to say that the opening of the seals is still in the future or may have started already!
I used the term "As I see the Seals" as a polite way of expressing my opinion. I could have started like this:
"The Seals correspond to the coming of Antichrist and then to the battle of Gog and Magog", so please interpret my sentence without the "As I see the Seals" part.
I'll continue without polite expressions :)
The Seals are opened in Revelation Chapter 6, which is 2 chapters later of Chapter 4. So when you assume that I related the timing of the Seals to the "alleged rapture in chapter 4,", then you are making a mistake.
According to the Bible the Seals are opened during the first half of the tribulation. You ignore this and say that the first 3.5 years are already gone, but the seals could come later. Lets invoke RULE#1 and please provide me scripture that puts the Seals in the second 3.5 years!
Also, you misunderstood my question: I asked you to show me, where you put the Battle of Gog and Magog in the book of Revelation. Please answer this specifically and don't just say, that "the seals can be at any time"! (In other words give me chapter and verse in Revelation where the Ezekiel 38-39 battle takes place)
Subject #7 (What covenant was made in Daniel 9:27)
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Battyus
3. If In Daniel 9:27 it is the Messiah who makes the covenant rather than the Antichrist:
Then the covenant that Jesus makes is going to be for 1 week (7 Years to be consistent with Daniel 9:24).
According to Luk 22:20, Heb 8:13; 9:15 Jesus did make a covenant while He was on Earth, but that covenant is not for 7 years, but forever!
My question: What Kind of a covenant did Jesus make while he was here on Earth that lasts for 7 years?
The covenant was the one that all the kings made with the subjects of Isra'el AND the covenant that God made with Daviyd and his house:
2 Sam 5:3-4
2 Sam 23:1-5
2 Chron 13:4-5
2 Chron 6:13-17
The covenant is an agreement that Daviyd made with Isra'el and that God made with Daviyd and all His children, right down the line to Yeshua`!
RULE#1: I ask you to quote where Jesus makes this covenant in the New Testament.
I say "According to Luk 22:20, Heb 8:13; 9:15 Jesus did make a covenant while He was on Earth, but that covenant is not for 7 years, but forever!"
Also, you still ignore the fact that the covenant in Dan 9:27 is made for 1 week: "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week"!
Do you say that the covenant you referred to is in tact for only 7 years?
My question was specifically: "What Kind of a covenant did Jesus make while he was here on Earth that lasts for 7 years?"
Subject #8 (Did or did not Jesus make the sacrifices cease or not when he was here on Earth)
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Battyus
4. If In Daniel 9:27 it is the Messiah who makes the covenant rather than the Antichrist:
Then according to the same verse "in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease". So according to you Jesus had the sacrifice and the oblation to cease when he was on Earth. This can not be true as the sacrifice and the oblation continued up until AD70. Keep in mind that, you said: "half of the week is already gone, fulfilled in the ministry of Yeshua` haMashiach"
My question, what scripture backs up the continuation of the sacrifices for ~40 more years?
There is NONE! To the contrary, we have evidence in Matthew 27:50-53 ...
Matt 27:50-53
... coupled with the explanation of the author of Hebrews:
Heb 10:5-22
Thus, no matter how they sacrificed animals from the time of the death of Yeshua` to 70 A.D., they were MEANINGLESS BUTCHERING of animals, no longer capable of atonement! In fact, there is an account that says that the red ribbon tied to the escape goat (Lev. 16), which supernaturally used to turn white with the completion of the sacrifice, remained red during those 40 years!
See, they were not truly sacrifices if the LORD of the sacrifices did not accept them as such! They were just going through the vain motions.
So you agree that Jesus DID NOT make the sacrifices stop while he was on Earth.
This automatically denies the possibility that Daniel 9:27 talks about Jesus as the one who makes the covenant and by this your view lost the leg it was standing on!
Subject #9 (Which covenant Daniel 9:27 talks about)
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Battyus
5. Your interpretation of Matthew 23:37-39:
I see why you would feel good about your interpretation of Matthew 23:37-39 if the Messiah is the one who in Dan 9:27 "causes the sacrifice and the oblation to cease".
My questions:
-In Matthew 23:37-39 Jesus clearly addresses Jerusalem, which is "the Jewish people". So if according to you Matthew 23:37-39 and Daniel 9:27 are parallel passages, then Jesus made the covenant in Dan 9:27 only with Israel. However according to Daniel 9:27 the covenant is made with Many not only with Israel. How do you explain this discrepancy?
Simple. This is NOT the New Covenant (which, by the way, was to be made with the children of Isra'el) and was extended to the Goyim (the Gentiles); this is the Davidic Covenant through which God promised there would always be one of Daviyd's line to sit upon the throne! The seven years, is reminiscent of the first seven years of Daviyd's kingdom when He reigned from Hevrown (Hebron). Those were the years He was supposed to reign over the tribe of Y'hudah (as did Daviyd haMelekh). BUT, they REJECTED HIM as their King!
In Daniel 9:27 there is a covenant made. This is a covenant that is made by the person about whom Daniel 9:27 talks about. This person could be the Antichrist(my opinion) or the Messiah(your opinion). Daniel 9:27 does not talk about a covenant that was made by David! (I think things are really mixed up here in your view and in fact the whole view is based upon this false assumption)
Subject #10 (When will Israel recognize that Jesus is the Messiah)
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Battyus
-Matthew 23:39 says "Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.". So "Israel" will not see Jesus again until they will recognize that He is the Messiah. Which event in Revelation describes "Israel"'s recognition of Jesus as Messiah?
Revelation 19:6-9 which reflect the prophecy of Z'kharyahu:
Rev 19:6-16
Zech 12:7-14
The huge crowd that Yochanan hears in verse 6 is NOT necessarily only in the sky, and I believe that it includes Isra'el as well. There are a few things that we need to recognize:
First, the Jews will look upon the Messiah and recognize Him!
Second, they will mourn for Him as an only son or as a firstborn. These families mentioned in verses 12 and 13 are LISTED IN THE GENEALOGY of Luke 3! They are His FAMILY, His grandfathers and grandmothers, with however many "greats!" This also tells us that the resurrection in Isra'el has already happened, because they are VERTICALLY linked in the family tree.
Third, it is important to note that chapter 12 in Z'kharyahu's prophecy occurs BEFORE the events of chapter 14, just as verses 6-7 in Rev. 19 happen BEFORE verses 11-21.
On one hand Rev 19:6-9 is talking about the marriage of the Lamb and on the other hand Zech 12:7-14 is the description of Israel turning to God after a Battle. My question: which battle? This is the key!
The 2 passages are not parallel. (If you think they are, then tell me the meaning of "On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem" in Zech 12:9)
This is exactly why I asked you about the Battle of Gog and Magog earlier!
If you compare Zechariah 12:1-14 to Ezekiel chapters 38-39 and to Revelation 6:3-8, then you'll see that these are parallel passages in scripture.
This explains that the battle of Gog and Magog is in fact the 2-4 Seals of Revelation and after that battle, Israel recognizes that Jesus is the Messiah. And this is exactly what Zechariah is talking about in chapter 12:1-14.
Also, just as you say "chapter 12 in Z'kharyahu's prophecy occurs BEFORE the events of chapter 14", I think you'll understand now that the parallel passage of Rev 19:6-9 is Zech 14:7-9! And this matches with your opinion that Zech 12 happens earlier, (in Rev chapter 6 to be exact) and not in Rev chapter 19!
Additionally, if Israel would only recognize that Jesus is the Messiah at the time of the Marriage of the Lamb, it would be too late for them! At that point it would be too late to repent in order to participate in the marriage!
So, all of this I'm talking about can be found with matching verses and cross references at the following website: Olivet-Discourse-Revelation.com
Wow, this got really long!
May the Lord bless you,
Battyus
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/17/2010 9:21:43 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 766
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, Ezra.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
Some of you are already aware that my premise is that half of Dani'el's 70th week (Dan. 9:24-27) is already over, having been fulfilled in the ministry of Yeshua` haMashiach.
It's truly amazing how someone can get so messed up in their thinking.
The entire 70th week of Daniel is connected with the Antichrist, not the Lord Jesus Christ. See Daniel 9:27. Messiah was "cut off" or crucified at the end of the 69th week, and it can be (and has been) calculated to the day.
Therefore one has to really misinterpret and reinterpret Scripture to arrive at this totally untenable conclusion. And a multitude of words does not necessarily establish a fallacy. In fact it is a red flag.
Okay, first, please try to attack the problem and not the person. No "ad hominem" arguments will add anything to the discussion. Your statement of exasperation is taken as just that ... an exclamation, nothing more. Thus, your OPINION that I'm "messed up in my thinking" is only that, an OPINION, however amazing it may be to you.
Second, IF the 70th week must remain intact, then how do YOU explain a gap? How can YOU justify a gap of almost 2000 years between the 69th and the 70th weeks? And, please answer by means of Scripture, as much as possible.
Third, as I've tried to explain before, in both the Hebrew and the English translation, it is quite impossible for the "he" in verse 27 to refer to the "prince that shall come" in verse 26! The "prince that shall come" is the OBJECT OF A PREPOSITIONAL PHRASE! Therefore, it cannot be the antecedent of the word "he!" It is the noun "Mashiach," or "Messiah," in verse 26 that is the subject and is therefore the antecedent!
So, let's reinvestigate verse 27 in this light:
Dan 9:27
27 And MESSIAH shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week MESSIAH shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations MESSIAH shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV
It doesn't take a lot of words; I'm just ... well ... wordy. What it DOES take is honesty and consistancy in translation and interpretation.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/17/2010 10:57:27 AM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 381
Joined: 4/12/2005
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Roy
Where in scripture does it say that Jesus' Ministry was exactly 3 1/2 years. You need to know the exact date of His Baptism (not given in scripture) and exact date of His Death (also not given in scripture).
But scripture does say The Anointed One was to be cut off (or killed) after the 69th week. Dan 9:26
So you are basing your 3 1/2 years on assumption.
In Christ
Montana Marv
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/17/2010 11:22:08 AM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 381
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, Ezra.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
Some of you are already aware that my premise is that half of Dani'el's 70th week (Dan. 9:24-27) is already over, having been fulfilled in the ministry of Yeshua` haMashiach.
It's truly amazing how someone can get so messed up in their thinking.
The entire 70th week of Daniel is connected with the Antichrist, not the Lord Jesus Christ. See Daniel 9:27. Messiah was "cut off" or crucified at the end of the 69th week, and it can be (and has been) calculated to the day.
Therefore one has to really misinterpret and reinterpret Scripture to arrive at this totally untenable conclusion. And a multitude of words does not necessarily establish a fallacy. In fact it is a red flag.
Okay, first, please try to attack the problem and not the person. No "ad hominem" arguments will add anything to the discussion. Your statement of exasperation is taken as just that ... an exclamation, nothing more. Thus, your OPINION that I'm "messed up in my thinking" is only that, an OPINION, however amazing it may be to you.
Second, IF the 70th week must remain intact, then how do YOU explain a gap? How can YOU justify a gap of almost 2000 years between the 69th and the 70th weeks? And, please answer by means of Scripture, as much as possible.
Third, as I've tried to explain before, in both the Hebrew and the English translation, it is quite impossible for the "he" in verse 27 to refer to the "prince that shall come" in verse 26! The "prince that shall come" is the OBJECT OF A PREPOSITIONAL PHRASE! Therefore, it cannot be the antecedent of the word "he!" It is the noun "Mashiach," or "Messiah," in verse 26 that is the subject and is therefore the antecedent!
So, let's reinvestigate verse 27 in this light:
Dan 9:27
27 And MESSIAH shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week MESSIAH shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations MESSIAH shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV
It doesn't take a lot of words; I'm just ... well ... wordy. What it DOES take is honesty and consistancy in translation and interpretation.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
Roy
In your above verse: Dan 9:27, you need to finish the verse --- And on a wing of the temple he (the Messiah) will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him (the Messiah).
This goes against what Jesus stated in Matt 24 - So when you see standing in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation; spoken of through the prophet Daniel (Dan 9:27) - let the reader understand, then let those in Judea (immediately) flee to the mountains.
What did Jesus set up on a wing of the temple?
What covenant did Jesus confirm with many for one seven?
Why did no one flee to the mountains?
In Christ
Montana Marv
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/17/2010 11:48:30 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1828
Status: offline
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quote:
Second, IF the 70th week must remain intact, then how do YOU explain a gap? How can YOU justify a gap of almost 2000 years between the 69th and the 70th weeks? And, please answer by means of Scripture, as much as possible.
If you are saying that there is a gap between the 69th and the 70th week, I heartily concur. That gap corresponds to the present time -- the Church age. However, I was responding to a query about a gap within the 70th week, and that gap does not exist.
quote:
So, let's reinvestigate verse 27 in this light:
Dan 9:27
27 And MESSIAH shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week MESSIAH shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations MESSIAH shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. KJV
The only problem with this is that the text does not say "Messiah" but "he" and indeed that "he" does not relate to Messiah but to "the prince that shall come" who "shall destroy the city and sanctuary" (v.26). This is a reference to the Antichrist. Christ does not destroy Jerusalem when the Antichrist is in control. Indeed quite the opposite. See Zechariah 12:8 (indeed the entire chapter).
If you still have an open mind, read "The Coming Prince" by Sir Robert Anderson (Kregel, 1977).
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/17/2010 11:50:19 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1828
Status: offline
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quote:
What did Jesus set up on a wing of the temple?
What covenant did Jesus confirm with many for one seven?
Why did no one flee to the mountains?
Exactly. It takes a lot of stretching to replace the Antichrist with Christ.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/18/2010 12:15:02 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 766
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, Montana Marv.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Montana Marv
Roy
Where in scripture does it say that Jesus' Ministry was exactly 3 1/2 years. You need to know the exact date of His Baptism (not given in scripture) and exact date of His Death (also not given in scripture).
But scripture does say The Anointed One was to be cut off (or killed) after the 69th week. Dan 9:26
So you are basing your 3 1/2 years on assumption.
In Christ
Montana Marv
You're right that the Scriptures do not say that Yeshua`s ministry was exactly 3.5 years. HOWEVER, we are given contextual clues that give us that conclusion:
First, Yochanan's baptism was done in Nahar haYarden (the River Jordan), and although it has several bends and turns, it is a fast moving river, especially during the rainy season, because it flows from Yam haKinneret (the Sea of Galilee, 685 feet below sea level) to Yam haMelach (the Salt Sea or the Dead Sea, 1300 feet below sea level) over a stretch of a little over 60 miles! That's a fall of about 10 feet a mile! The rainy season in Isra'el is from October to at least April and even to early May, the peak being in December, and the Yarden frequently overflows its banks, becoming a river on which one could go whitewater rafting! The dry season is from early May to September.
Thus, it would make sense that Yeshua` would have been baptized no later than September, which is one possible date for Yeshua`s birthday since some feel that he could have been born on Rosh haShannah (the Jewish New Year's Day, which is supposed to be the anniversary of the Creation), Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement), or at the latest during Succot (the feast of Tabernacles or Booths). We know that He started His ministry close to His birthday. (Luke 3:23)
The Gospel of Yochanan (John) lists three Passovers which Yeshua` attended with His students (John 2:13; 5:1; 6:4), the fourth Pesach (Passover) being the one when He was crucifed (Matt. 26:2ff; Mark 14:1ff; Luke 22:1ff; John 11:55ff). Pesach is always celebrated on the 14th of the month Nisan in the Jewish calendar which corresponds roughly from March to April. How does that add up to you? Sounds like roughly 1/2 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 3.5 years!
Second, 69.5 IS "after" 69!
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/18/2010 12:18:33 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 766
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, Battyus.
Yes, it did get rather long. I'm working on a response to your questions, but it's going to take a little while. I WILL get back to you ASAP.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/18/2010 12:43:55 AM
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Ntech
Posts: 62
Joined: 5/3/2005
Status: offline
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A question. Why is there such a long gap between the 69th and 70th week? Let me give you the answer.
Malachi 4
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
Why is this the answer? Because of this.
Matthew 17
10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
The job of Messiah in the first century was supposed to have been a 2 man job. When Herod killed John the Baptist he triggered the curse. And it's quite the nasty one.
Now to get the details of the curse I had to look through the old Testament Leviticus 26 for the details on curses under Judaism and then I found the main details of it in the book of Hosea. The verses to look at.
Hosea 3
4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.
Then its far more specific later in the book.
Hosea 5
3 I know Ephraim, and Israel is not hid from me: for now, O Ephraim, thou committest whoredom, and Israel is defiled.
4 They will not frame their doings to turn unto their God: for the spirit of whoredoms is in the midst of them, and they have not known the LORD.
5 And the pride of Israel doth testify to his face: therefore shall Israel and Ephraim fall in their iniquity: Judah also shall fall with them.
13 When Ephraim saw his sickness, and Judah saw his wound, then went Ephraim to the Assyrian, and sent to king Jareb: yet could he not heal you, nor cure you of your wound.
14 For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him.15 I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.
Verse 14 is nothing less than a declaration of a top level Leviticus 26 curse.
And then Hosea 6 has the timeframe of the curse. 2 days.
1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
But the problem here is that the days mentioned are in the presence of God. And 2nd Peter 3-8 and Psalms 90 cover that issue.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The days are thousand year periods of time. This curse of Malachi is supposed to be 2000 years long. And starting from the death of John the baptist I would say the curse ends in the 2020's.
And that is the explaination of the gap between the 69th and 70th week.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/18/2010 1:16:35 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 766
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, Montana Marv.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Montana Marv
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, Ezra.
...
Okay, first, please try to attack the problem and not the person. No "ad hominem" arguments will add anything to the discussion. Your statement of exasperation is taken as just that ... an exclamation, nothing more. Thus, your OPINION that I'm "messed up in my thinking" is only that, an OPINION, however amazing it may be to you.
Second, IF the 70th week must remain intact, then how do YOU explain a gap? How can YOU justify a gap of almost 2000 years between the 69th and the 70th weeks? And, please answer by means of Scripture, as much as possible.
Third, as I've tried to explain before, in both the Hebrew and the English translation, it is quite impossible for the "he" in verse 27 to refer to the "prince that shall come" in verse 26! The "prince that shall come" is the OBJECT OF A PREPOSITIONAL PHRASE! Therefore, it cannot be the antecedent of the word "he!" It is the noun "Mashiach," or "Messiah," in verse 26 that is the subject and is therefore the antecedent!
So, let's reinvestigate verse 27 in this light:
Dan 9:27
27 And MESSIAH shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week MESSIAH shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations MESSIAH shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV
It doesn't take a lot of words; I'm just ... well ... wordy. What it DOES take is honesty and consistancy in translation and interpretation.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
Roy
In your above verse: Dan 9:27, you need to finish the verse --- And on a wing of the temple he (the Messiah) will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him (the Messiah).
This goes against what Jesus stated in Matt 24 - So when you see standing in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation; spoken of through the prophet Daniel (Dan 9:27) - let the reader understand, then let those in Judea (immediately) flee to the mountains.
What did Jesus set up on a wing of the temple?
What covenant did Jesus confirm with many for one seven?
Why did no one flee to the mountains?
In Christ
Montana Marv
First, "on a wing of the temple" is an interpretation of the Hebrew words "v’`al k’naf shiquwtziym m’shomeim" which literally translates to...
v’`al = and-above; and-over; and-upon; and-against
k’naf = an-edge; an-extremity; a-wing; a-flap; a-quarter; a-pinnacle
shiquwtziym = disgusting-[thing]s; filthy-[thing]s; idols
m’shomeim = he-shall-stun-it; he-shall-devastate-it; he-shall-stupify-it; he-shall-make-it-desolate
While the version you chose to use says, "set up on a wing of the temple" (when the word for "temple" is not even there!), the KJV uses the words "for the overspreading of abominations." I don't particularly like the version (the NIV) you are using, in this case. I've caught the NIV making too many subjective interpretations based on the agenda of the translator. Please notice that "[of the temple]" is in square brackets indicating that the words were supplied and not in the original text. I prefer "and against an extremity [of] disgusting [thing]s, he shall devastate it." Thus, Yeshua` didn't "set up" ANYTHING "on a wing of the temple!" Rather, because of the disgusting things that were done and the sheer extent of them, He devastated Jerusalem!
Second, the covenant that Yeshua` confirmed with many for one seven is the same seven-year covenant that Daviyd made with Y'hudah for one seven in Hevrown! It's the covenant that all the kings made with the subjects of Isra'el AND the covenant that God made with Daviyd and his house:
2 Sam 5:3-4
2 Sam 23:1-5
2 Chron 13:4-5
2 Chron 6:13-17
The covenant is an agreement that Daviyd made with Isra'el and that God made with Daviyd and all His children, right down the line to Yeshua`! This is NOT about the New Covenant that Yeshua` did not make until He was about to go to the cross, ratified by his blood (the wine) and his broken body (the broken matzah) that symbolized what He would make literal when He was no longer free to talk with His students. (It's kind of hard to talk when your chest is being squeezed by your own weight!)
Third, who says that they DIDN'T run to the mountains?! Josephus (the only eye-witness account we have of the Roman destruction of Jerusalem) said that they did! We know of at least this band:
According to Josephus, a first-century Jewish Roman historian, Herod the Great fortified Masada between 37 and 31 BCE as a refuge for himself in the event of a revolt. In 66 CE, at the beginning of the First Jewish-Roman War against the Roman Empire, a group of Jewish extremists called the Sicarii overcame the Roman garrison of Masada. After the destruction of the Temple, the Jewish rebels and their families fled Jerusalem and settled on the mountain top, using it as a base for raiding Roman settlements. (One can read the rest of the article at Wikipedia's entry on Masada.)
I'm not saying that Yeshua` said they should flee to Masada; all He said was that they should flee to the mountains; however, we have proof in this account that some at least did just that and wound up in Masada, which is on top of a mountain! I believe that His students fled to other mountains in the area.
Today, that would never work, because unless there was sufficient tree-cover or caves in which to hide, they would be spotted by helicopters, planes, or satellites!
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/18/2010 1:23:48 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 766
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, Ezra.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
What did Jesus set up on a wing of the temple?
What covenant did Jesus confirm with many for one seven?
Why did no one flee to the mountains?
Exactly. It takes a lot of stretching to replace the Antichrist with Christ.
Nu, not so much as you might like to believe! Besides, these four verses in Dani'el (Dan. 9:24-27) have already been stretched beyond recognition by applying them to this so-called "Antichrist!"
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/18/2010 1:30:13 AM
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tsnody2001
Posts: 1019
Joined: 4/29/2008
From: Terre Haute, IN
Status: offline
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Roy, you are very seriously stretching the Scriptures if you think Luke 3:23 says that Jesus started his ministry around his birthday. Are you serious? All it says is that He was about thirty years old when He began his ministry. It mentions nothing of His birthday. When I say I got my drivers license when I was seventeen, that does not have to mean that I got them on December 14. In fact, I got them in the middle of the summer.
_____________________________
Until He Returns (Rev. 2:17),
Travis
During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ~George Orwell
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/18/2010 1:55:10 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 766
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, Travis.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tsnody2001
Roy, you are very seriously stretching the Scriptures if you think Luke 3:23 says that Jesus started his ministry around his birthday. Are you serious? All it says is that He was about thirty years old when He began his ministry. It mentions nothing of His birthday. When I say I got my drivers license when I was seventeen, that does not have to mean that I got them on December 14. In fact, I got them in the middle of the summer.
No stretch. Think GREEK!
23 Kai autos een Ieesous archomenos hoosei etoon triakonta, oon huios, hoos enomizeto, Iooseef tou Eeli.
23 Kai = And
autos = himself
een = to-be
Ieesous = Yeshua`
archomenos = commenced
hoosei = as
etoon = years
triakonta, = thirty,
oon = being
huios, = a-son,
hoos = like
enomizeto, = supposed,
Iooseef = of-Yosef
tou = of-the
Eeli. = Eliy.
Thus, the verse says,
23 And Yeshua` himself commenced to be as thirty years, being a son, as supposed, of Yosef of [the] Eliy.
The key is "archomenos," translated in the KJV as "began" and means "commenced" or "started!" It was His birthday (or pretty close)!
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Half the week is over; half is yet to come - 1/18/2010 11:15:01 AM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 381
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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Roy
You need to know more about war and the war (revolt) between Israel and Rome. Jerusalem was under siege by Rome for more than 6 months before it fell in 70 AD. That would mean that Rome had control of the country. Rome already was sending those of Israel into exile before 70 AD. Masada fell in 73 AD. All committed suicide. If Israel was already overrun by the Roman army before 70 AD, they should have fled before the conflict. All that was accomplished beside the temple being destroyed was the dispersal of the Jews throughout the Roman Empire. This is what Ezk 37 is all about, Those of Israel returning back to their Promised Land.
And to your: Today that would not work (fleeing) because of helicopters, satellites (and such). You're sounding a lot like Hal Lindsey. (using present day war methods for the end times). You have forgotten the X - Factor. Dan 12:1 - At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of the nations until then. And Rev 12: 12 - Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them. But, woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you. He is fill with fury, because he knows that his time is short. Then jump to verse 14- The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time out of the serpents reach. (3 1/2 years). Look who is attacking the woman (Israel), but Satan, not the Antichrist. And for how long 3 1/2 years.
Now according to Rev 13 the beast who had the fatal wound which was healed. vs 4 - Who can make war against him? vs 5 -the beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty two months. (3 1/2 years) Now this beast is able to overcome the saints. It says nothing about Israel.
Here the A/C has a 3 1/2 year rule, then Satan has a 3 1/2 year rule. Alas, the 70th week of Daniel is one full week with no gaps.
In Christ
Montana Marv
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