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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 3/2/2010 6:35:10 AM
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cposey
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From what i can see from the different sides of this debate, the emergent church offends some because they put love and acceptance and tolerance ahead of doctrine and theology. Most of the others put doctrine and theology ahead of love and acceptance and tolerance. Here are some questions:
Didn't Jesus say come as you are?
Didn't Jesus tolerate the lack of understanding even with those he taught directly(disciples)?
Didn't Jesus say to love God and one another?
Why is it so hard for so called "mature" Christians to allow people to be who they are?
Why do "mature" Christians feel the need to change people and their thoughts and beliefs, isn't it only God who can change people?
You know at some point we all have been wrong. We all have had false beliefs, a lack of understanding. So do you think we can see the bigger picture and allow God to give the understanding to those people, without us getting in the way, being divisive and a stumbling block to those who have not received God's wisdom and understanding.
WE ALL NEED TO LEARN TO BE PATIENT AND UNDERSTAND THAT GOD IS THE ONLY SOURCE OF WISDOM AND UNDERSTANDING AND TRUTH. HE WILL GIVE IT AS HE SEES, NOT IN OUR EXPECTATIONS.
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 3/2/2010 9:09:21 AM
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drmark
Posts: 5613
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quote:
drmark, I see my humor escapes you as well I will take that as a compliment... 
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Our communications styles are simply incompatible Another compliment, thank you.
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I go by the big picture and work down to the point and he uses linear logic and works up to the point. Is your brother available for editing purposes?
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Live long and prosper. Hmm, I think I understand the "big picture" in this quip from New-Age 70's culture. I will respond with linear logic from Psalm 128:5!
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 3/2/2010 9:11:44 AM
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didymus101
Posts: 1342
Joined: 6/13/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cposey
From what i can see from the different sides of this debate, the emergent church offends some because they put love and acceptance and tolerance ahead of doctrine and theology. Most of the others put doctrine and theology ahead of love and acceptance and tolerance. Here are some questions:
Didn't Jesus say come as you are?
Didn't Jesus tolerate the lack of understanding even with those he taught directly(disciples)?
Didn't Jesus say to love God and one another?
Why is it so hard for so called "mature" Christians to allow people to be who they are?
Why do "mature" Christians feel the need to change people and their thoughts and beliefs, isn't it only God who can change people?
You know at some point we all have been wrong. We all have had false beliefs, a lack of understanding. So do you think we can see the bigger picture and allow God to give the understanding to those people, without us getting in the way, being divisive and a stumbling block to those who have not received God's wisdom and understanding.
WE ALL NEED TO LEARN TO BE PATIENT AND UNDERSTAND THAT GOD IS THE ONLY SOURCE OF WISDOM AND UNDERSTANDING AND TRUTH. HE WILL GIVE IT AS HE SEES, NOT IN OUR EXPECTATIONS.
cposey, what the world sees as intolerant is our insistence that there is One Way to truth and that if you do not find that One Way you are in very, very big trouble. We say that accepting Jesus Christ is, as you phrased it above, "THE ONLY SOURCE OF (TRUE) WISDOM AND UNDERSTANDING AND TRUTH."
Of course much of the Church could be far, far more loving in delivering that message. All your observations are true, to a degree. Many cannot see that they are entrenched in their beloved doctrinal tradition and not positioned in Christ; they see faith as what their sect teaches and not what it is: total trust in and reliance upon God for all things. Scripture is not to have any other name but Jesus Christ, yet many affix other names and isms to doctrine causing standardized divisiveness.
To me this common and accepted way of the church today reads like 1Cor1:12: "One of you says, "I follow Paul"; and another says, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ."
This is in response to the arguing and division Paul found in this church, which has continued through the centuries and been blessed by the thoughts of man as righteous separation. Hearts are hardened around this area, cposey, and trying to reason with them will bring nothing but frustration and heartache.
You mentioned patience for the less mature and I know you are talking about how people respond in here as well as the out there. The rule of always responding in gentleness and kindness to others, whether we think they deserve it or not, should be practiced everywhere. Yet if you take exception to their sarcasm and insults, they tell you to take a hike if you can't stand the heat. A few will apologize and the rest just get more surlier.
And you mentioned love, which seems to have a bad name is this forum as well as out there among the dogma-first people. The reactions of some to the emphasis on love has quite frankly stunned me from the first day here and it matches the almost daily thoughtlessness in comments by TV Evangelists.
To me, the church is allowing itself to get pulled in many directions by the present conditions in the world, and by that I mean its new political activism and "world-changing" movements. The gospel suffers, for the gospel is one of love for all and politcal partisanship, even in the general breakdown of conservative and liberal, does not speak, or listen, to each other or the lost.
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 3/2/2010 12:26:03 PM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 788
Joined: 1/15/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: didymus101
quote:
ORIGINAL: cposey
From what i can see from the different sides of this debate, the emergent church offends some because they put love and acceptance and tolerance ahead of doctrine and theology. Most of the others put doctrine and theology ahead of love and acceptance and tolerance. Here are some questions:
Didn't Jesus say come as you are?
Didn't Jesus tolerate the lack of understanding even with those he taught directly(disciples)?
Didn't Jesus say to love God and one another?
Why is it so hard for so called "mature" Christians to allow people to be who they are?
Why do "mature" Christians feel the need to change people and their thoughts and beliefs, isn't it only God who can change people?
You know at some point we all have been wrong. We all have had false beliefs, a lack of understanding. So do you think we can see the bigger picture and allow God to give the understanding to those people, without us getting in the way, being divisive and a stumbling block to those who have not received God's wisdom and understanding.
WE ALL NEED TO LEARN TO BE PATIENT AND UNDERSTAND THAT GOD IS THE ONLY SOURCE OF WISDOM AND UNDERSTANDING AND TRUTH. HE WILL GIVE IT AS HE SEES, NOT IN OUR EXPECTATIONS.
cposey, what the world sees as intolerant is our insistence that there is One Way to truth and that if you do not find that One Way you are in very, very big trouble. We say that accepting Jesus Christ is, as you phrased it above, "THE ONLY SOURCE OF (TRUE) WISDOM AND UNDERSTANDING AND TRUTH."
Of course much of the Church could be far, far more loving in delivering that message. All your observations are true, to a degree. Many cannot see that they are entrenched in their beloved doctrinal tradition and not positioned in Christ; they see faith as what their sect teaches and not what it is: total trust in and reliance upon God for all things. Scripture is not to have any other name but Jesus Christ, yet many affix other names and isms to doctrine causing standardized divisiveness.
To me this common and accepted way of the church today reads like 1Cor1:12: "One of you says, "I follow Paul"; and another says, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ."
This is in response to the arguing and division Paul found in this church, which has continued through the centuries and been blessed by the thoughts of man as righteous separation. Hearts are hardened around this area, cposey, and trying to reason with them will bring nothing but frustration and heartache.
You mentioned patience for the less mature and I know you are talking about how people respond in here as well as the out there. The rule of always responding in gentleness and kindness to others, whether we think they deserve it or not, should be practiced everywhere. Yet if you take exception to their sarcasm and insults, they tell you to take a hike if you can't stand the heat. A few will apologize and the rest just get more surlier.
And you mentioned love, which seems to have a bad name is this forum as well as out there among the dogma-first people. The reactions of some to the emphasis on love has quite frankly stunned me from the first day here and it matches the almost daily thoughtlessness in comments by TV Evangelists.
To me, the church is allowing itself to get pulled in many directions by the present conditions in the world, and by that I mean its new political activism and "world-changing" movements. The gospel suffers, for the gospel is one of love for all and politcal partisanship, even in the general breakdown of conservative and liberal, does not speak, or listen, to each other or the lost.
Didymus101: I think youve got some valid points. But I disagree that the emergents versus the evangelicals are just as you say..quote:
are entrenched in their beloved doctrinal tradition and not positioned in Christ; they see faith as what their sect teaches and not what it is: total trust in and reliance upon God for all things.
Im entrenched in the trinity, divinity of Christ, Gods commands, salvation by Christ alone, justification by faith, salvation by grace, eternal damnation, election and predestination.
So I suppose it would just as fair for me to say..."Im in entrenched in Jesus"....Why? Cause thats what Jesus taught!
It is a false dichotomy to say Im a doctrinalist and Im a Christ-ian. There is no such thing as a Christian that is not doctrinal. Its impossible. Even the false Christians and cults have their doctrines.
So, when the emergents gather up and do the post modern reject-established-truth dance. Its a dance that means nothing in the end. Its just a jig that they do so other truth-rejectors can recognize externally that spirit of error that guides them. Yet, with comparisons such as yours, Im simply a doctrinalist that has no love and nothing to say to them. That is IMO a pure lie of hell.
Doctrine is not the enemy of love, it never has been. Doctrine is the enemy of error.
As long as the emergents associate themselves with error, then doctrine will rise up and condemn their beliefs and their practices. This is biblical, Christlike and commanded of God.
Attaching labels to those who attack the emergent errors such as pharasees, doctrinalists, denominationalists, or whatever ism might be preferred does nothing to relieve them of the situation they are in and in fact arms with with a false confidence that their errors might still save them in the day of judgment.
Instead of vagueness, I say Pagit, Bell, Maclaren, and those who swirl around them in agreement with their ideas and practices are not simply Doctrine vs love&tolerance.
I call it False teachers verses Christ-ians
I call it False spirit verses the Holy Spirit
I call it False Hope verses True Hope
I call it False Faith verses True faith that was once delivered to the saints.
I call it False Christ verses the True Christ of scripture.
So for me, the battle lines are not drawn up to argue Paul verse Apollos, To me, they are drawn up
between Christ and False teachers, The Church of Jesus Christ verses the harlot of revelation.
Idolators verses True worshippers.
There can be no truce, no treaties, no surrender, no hand-shakes and moving of boundries.
There is light and there is dark in this issue and for me, the Devil wants to put light for dark, good for evil and evil for good Isa 5. I reject these teachers as liars and heretics, not 'lovers vs academians.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 3/2/2010 12:27:17 PM
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CitationSquirrel
Posts: 70
Joined: 3/23/2009
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FYI ...
Christianity Today has a lengthy review of the book posted online.
_____________________________
"Prying into [the mysteries of election, predestination, and divine sovereignty] may make theologians, but it will never make saints." -- A.W. Tozer
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 3/2/2010 12:49:22 PM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 788
Joined: 1/15/2006
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When Joseph Smith was getting his group together did he deny that there was a Christ? NO.
Did he claim the Church had deep problems? YES.
Did he say that his version of understanding the bible, and his divine calling help him to make this much needed course correction for what he felt was an 'apostate church'? YES.
So too, Maclaren and his band are drawing away after themselves people that
"reject the established churches"
"find truth in a new leader"
"want to live the bible out in a new way"
"believe that the Christ of Maclaren is a far different but more satisfying Christ than the ones previously preached".
The Emergents are the only ones Ive seen arise with the capablity of 'cult status'. Maclarens "New kind of Christianity" will help form the basis for their own doctrinal foundation upon which to 'go out from us'
Dont the Mormons cherish their families? Dont they try to keep orderly family roles? Dont they have a bible to read and a Place of worship to attend?
All the externals are in place, all the errors have taken deep root and now you have a manufacturing plant to turn out innoculated children of hell. Youve got a local religious-union setting up shop whereby the shop steward keeps tabs on the members to keep them from defecting to those
horrible apostate Baptists, Calvary Chapel, Assemblies of God, Presbyterians and other non-denominational Churches.
So, should I judge that the emergents are true Christians because externals fool the blind? Should I forget their false doctrines because their externals get them credibility with the community?
Dont rabid atheists give to causes as well?
Im far worse than sharp-toothed about this issue. I have anathemas and warnings that stretch from California to Maine. I dont have minor course corrections for Maclaren, I have a bible that condemns his doctrines and Him to a God-given Damnation in hell.
Spineless, weak, cowardly, insecure men that have so little love for Jesus Christ and his Church
they are not jealous for God heritage. These false teachers have no feelings of compassion for a generation of people who are being seduced by lies and false teachings because they themselves are deceived and deluded.
I have a portion of the scriptures that speak to this kind of thinking by True Christians who tolerate and admit these errant deceivers to infiltrate our ranks.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 3/2/2010 1:15:00 PM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 788
Joined: 1/15/2006
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quote:
Jer 28:1 In that same year, at the beginning of the reign of Zedekiah king of Judah, in the fifth month of the fourth year, Hananiah the son of Azzur, the prophet from Gibeon, spoke to me in the house of the LORD, in the presence of the priests and all the people, saying,
Jer 28:2 "Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: I have broken the yoke of the king of Babylon.
Jer 28:3 Within two years I will bring back to this place all the vessels of the LORD's house, which Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon took away from this place and carried to Babylon.
Jer 28:4 I will also bring back to this place Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim, king of Judah, and all the exiles from Judah who went to Babylon, declares the LORD, for I will break the yoke of the king of Babylon."
Jer 28:5 Then the prophet Jeremiah spoke to Hananiah the prophet in the presence of the priests and all the people who were standing in the house of the LORD,
Jer 28:6 and the prophet Jeremiah said, "Amen! May the LORD do so; may the LORD make the words that you have prophesied come true, and bring back to this place from Babylon the vessels of the house of the LORD, and all the exile s.
The Pagits and Maclarens all see that things have got to change in the local Church. We recognize that.
But these men are like Hananiah. They come take the yoke off the Church and break it.
They think that the effort of men to set themselves free, along with a distorted view of God will keep them from the judgment to come. Punishment for sins is on its way.
Jeremiah depicted it with a yoke of wood, that the Babylonians would drive them like cattle.
But Hananiah said falsely. No, God has said our yoke is only two years long and it will be broken.
Heres the amazing part. Even Jeremiah who represent the true believer says "Yea and Amen" to it.
Jeremiah didnt want to undergo what was spoken before by God.
But when Jeremiah had a little time, God spoke to him.
A yoke of Iron will be placed upon Israel and Judah, they will be driven by the Babylonians. This generation for the most part will die exiles in Babylon for it will last 70 years.
God has yoked us to the Cross of Jesus Christ. We have those who want to break that cross, and turn it into a stick of wood that we can free ourselves from. But God will crush them under that cross. God will judge and he will bring his punishments for sin into this world. The emergents want to escape the 'burden' of the Church. They will either submit to it or be crushed by it.
Hananiah lived only another 3 months and died. He died as a false prophet teaching the people of God to rebel. Thats what it boiled down to....rebellion.
quote:
Jer 28:13 "Go, tell Hananiah, 'Thus says the LORD: You have broken wooden bars, but you have made in their place bars of iron.
So, Pagit, Maclaren, Bell pretend to offer freedom, but they are teaching rebellion and in the end will subject their hearers to a bondage far greater than any wood yoke from God would burden them.
It is true Christ's yoke is easy, compared to what? Compared to the yoke of Iron that men will make you carry.
quote:
Jer 28:15 And Jeremiah the prophet said to the prophet Hananiah, "Listen, Hananiah, the LORD has not sent you, and you have made this people trust in a lie.
Jer 28:16 Therefore thus says the LORD: 'Behold, I will remove you from the face of the earth. This year you shall die, because you have uttered rebellion against the LORD.'"
Jer 28:17 In that same year, in the seventh month, the prophet Hananiah died.
Every false teacher has the pretense of favor and blessing; that what is in store for him in the future is God blessed goodness. They promise the wheat but they are blown away as chaff.
Their ends are damnation not favor, corruption not goodness. Their final end is not what they proclaim for themselves and their followers, they have a different future awaiting them.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 3/2/2010 3:12:58 PM
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didymus101
Posts: 1342
Joined: 6/13/2009
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gloryandgrace, you used my line: "Doctrine is not the enemy."
To say a Christian needs doctrine and uses doctrine is not being entrenched in a doctrinal tradition, such as Baptist, Catholic, or Whatever. Doctrine goes by the name of Jesus Christ only and it is found in the full gospel of Jesus Christ and nowhere else. Putting other names on doctrine (such as Calvin, Luther, and Wesley) and creating endless "isms" is, as I said, simply standardizing divisiveness. All sound doctrine leads to Christ, not denominations.
Defending a doctrinal tradition is not the same as defending the faith. And this is not saying that all the people that call themselves Baptists, Catholics, or Whatever are entrenched in their doctrinal tradition instead of fully positioned in Christ.
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 3/2/2010 10:47:41 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1828
Status: offline
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quote:
All sound doctrine leads to Christ, not denominations.
Agreed. And by the same token all false doctrine -- even that which pretends to be evangelical -- leads away from Christ, who is the Truth.
quote:
Defending a doctrinal tradition is not the same as defending the faith.
While I do not support denominationalism, we need to be clear. No matter what the denomination, if Bible truth is preached and taught, it is not a "tradition" but a "doctrine" to be accepted by all believers. And all sound doctrine is a part of "the faith once delivered to the saints".
However, if it is simply a man-made teaching, then indeed it is a "tradition of men" and cannot be termed "doctrine". Every denomination has man-made traditions, and Christians must know how to separate the wheat from the chaff, by knowing and applying the Word.
One of the "traditions" found in modern denominations is a systemic failure to help believers truly search (and learn to search by themselves) the Scriptures using every available tool, and then to rightly divide the Word of Truth. Too many Christians are being spoonfed, and thus becoming prey to false teachers and false prophets.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 3/3/2010 10:26:16 AM
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solarflare
Posts: 1298
Joined: 6/16/2008
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I have been reading about and doing research on Maclaren eta al...are you aware that he also writes songs and sings? I mean alot of songs
http://www.youtube.com/user/bmac2056
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 3/3/2010 10:32:28 AM
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solarflare
Posts: 1298
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quote:
All sound doctrine leads to Christ, not denominations.
The problem here, as I am beginning to learn, is that the emergents do not really seem to have a grip on who Jesus really is and are hell bent for leather in remaking Him into their own image.
So, if you remake Christ, there goes your doctrine. They sure do not exemplify Christ as per the NT. Have a listen to that song by Maclaren, link provided above.
What I am really starting to see is a very deep deception and a turning away by small measures and as you accept these smaller measures, you are game for bigger things. (you meaning the "new Christianity as per the OP") Really, the subtlety of the whole thing reminds me of a snake slithering along minding its own business...just out of sight but ready to poison you should you walk into its territory.
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 3/3/2010 10:52:32 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 8180
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
The problem here, as I am beginning to learn, is that the emergents do not really seem to have a grip on who Jesus really is and are hell bent for leather in remaking Him into their own image.
This is the same conclusion at which I arrived.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 3/3/2010 11:45:28 PM
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Reform_Dave
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From: Where the mountains touch the sky.
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Maclaren's new kind of christian is just the old kind of heretic- Todd Friel
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If the Gospel were more clearly and faithfully preached, fewer would profess to believe it.- A.W. Pink
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 3/4/2010 12:38:30 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1828
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cposey
From what i can see from the different sides of this debate, the emergent church offends some because they put love and acceptance and tolerance ahead of doctrine and theology.
That is not a correct assessment. The reason why the emergent church is offensive is because it is a part of the end-time apostasy. Christians with sound doctrine also offer love and acceptance to sinners, but do not tolerate doctrinal error, since God does not tolerate it either. Read the letters to the seven churches in the book fo Revelation.
quote:
Most of the others put doctrine and theology ahead of love and acceptance and tolerance.
That is hardly the case. Genuine believers maintain a balance between sound doctrine and agape love (to other believers as well as to the lost).
quote:
Here are some questions:
Didn't Jesus say come as you are?
Actually the first recorded word out of the mouth of Christ in His public ministry was "Repent". Whiich means that all His hearers were sinners in need of repentance. Repentance is a change of heart, mind, will, and direction. From darkness to Light. It is a turning from sin and idols and a turning to the living God and the Lord Jesus Christ. Is the word "Repent" in the vocabulary of the emergents? I don't think so.
quote:
Didn't Jesus tolerate the lack of understanding even with those he taught directly(disciples)?
Christ was always patient with those who lacked understanding. But those who proclaimed false doctrine were rebuked soundly and publicly.
quote:
Didn't Jesus say to love God and one another?
Absolutely. And He also said that if we love Him we will keep His commandments. And one of His commandments is that we hold fast to the truth.
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Why is it so hard for so called "mature" Christians to allow people to be who they are?
"Mature" Christians don't make the rules. They simply obey them. And God does not "allow people to be who they are" since He gives every believer a new birth and commands us to follow Christ. Following Christ means that no one can "be who they are" any longer. They must change into His likeness and hate sin and false teaching.
quote:
Why do "mature" Christians feel the need to change people and their thoughts and beliefs, isn't it only God who can change people?
You are right. Only God can change people. But those who reject His truth will be deceived while deceiving others. Therefore mature Christians must rebuke false teachers and false teachings. This is to prevent immature Christians from being led astray.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 3/4/2010 1:01:42 AM
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sue244
Posts: 838
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Colorado
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Reform_Dave
Maclaren's new kind of christian is just the old kind of heretic- Todd Friel
There is nothing new under the sun.
BTW I love Wretched Radio
_____________________________
It is a remarkable fact that all the heresies which have arisen in the Christian Church have had a decided tendency to 'dishonor God and to flatter man. Spurgeon
Never let us be guilty of sacrificing any portion of truth on the altar of peace. Ryle
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 3/4/2010 7:09:04 AM
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cposey
Posts: 683
Joined: 8/20/2009
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quote:
That is not a correct assessment. The reason why the emergent church is offensive is because it is a part of the end-time apostasy. Christians with sound doctrine also offer love and acceptance to sinners, but do not tolerate doctrinal error, since God does not tolerate it either. Read the letters to the seven churches in the book fo Revelation.
That is exactly what i am speaking of. No one when they first start out on their walk, will ever fully understand doctrine. All understanding comes from God, so when people are wrong or do not have a full understanding of doctrine, it is most of the time because God has not granted them the wisdom and understanding yet. So yes God absolutely tolerates those who have a wrong or lesser understandign of doctrine. It would do you good to remember that you at some point didn't have it all together.
quote:
Actually the first recorded word out of the mouth of Christ in His public ministry was "Repent". Whiich means that all His hearers were sinners in need of repentance. Repentance is a change of heart, mind, will, and direction. From darkness to Light. It is a turning from sin and idols and a turning to the living God and the Lord Jesus Christ. Is the word "Repent" in the vocabulary of the emergents? I don't think so.
\
So Jesus didn't say come as you are?
quote:
But those who proclaimed false doctrine were rebuked soundly and publicly.
There are many times where a lack of understanding and wisdom can seem like false doctrine.
quote:
And God does not "allow people to be who they are" since He gives every believer a new birth and commands us to follow Christ. Following Christ means that no one can "be who they are" any longer. They must change into His likeness and hate sin and false teaching.
God definetly lets people be who they are. You nor I are not the same person that we were 10 years ago. If God were not patient with us and allow us to grow, than you would have been the same from the time you got saved until now.
quote:
But those who reject His truth will be deceived while deceiving others. Therefore mature Christians must rebuke false teachers and false teachings. This is to prevent immature Christians from being led astray.
Are you sure that what you call truth is absolute and not false? I am sure there has been plenty of people who disagree with you. Is everyone wrong but you? Has God chosen you as the sole bearer of truth?
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 3/4/2010 10:56:46 AM
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solarflare
Posts: 1298
Joined: 6/16/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
That is exactly what i am speaking of. No one when they first start out on their walk, will ever fully understand doctrine. All understanding comes from God, so when people are wrong or do not have a full understanding of doctrine, it is most of the time because God has not granted them the wisdom and understanding yet. So yes God absolutely tolerates those who have a wrong or lesser understandign of doctrine. It would do you good to remember that you at some point didn't have it all together.
Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand...Jesus' words.
So like, who does not know what repent means? Actually, it is my experience, and I have a good amount of it, that the majority of people who truly accept Jesus as their Savior and desire to live for Him, know exactly what to do. They know the difference between right and wrong. It is Christians who are 'saved and satisfied' that turn them around and send them in the wrong direction.
Salvation is not a matter of 'right' doctrine....which, if you have been paying attention in this thread, has been stated numerous times and numerous ways. NO ONE AT ALL has said that your doctrine must be correct to believe in Jesus and NO ONE AT ALL has stated that you only need love and not doctrine. If you are continuing in this vein of thought, it may clarify things for you if you go back and reread the thread and do your best to find where someone has said what I am stating they did not. Don't hold your breath.
Wrong doctrine will absolutely send you to hell....hello Jim Jones et all.
All understanding comes from God so if you are an ignoramus living in sin even though you call yourself a Christian, that is God's fault because He has decided you are only on a need to know basis and right now you don't need to know?
The NT teaches exactly the opposite.
II Tim 2:15:
Study to show yourself approved to God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Now the above verse is very explicit and states that WE must study to rightly divide the word of truth, (doctrine if you will although that is not a perfect word for it, but just to be simple). So, you are incorrect when you state it is up to God to expand our brains and we just dust our Bibles and wait for Him to be in the mood.
James 1:5
But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him.
The above verse here, is very explicit in stating that if we lack wisdom, we should ask God for it....as God gives to EVERYONE, and not just gives, but GIVES GENEROUSLY.....so again, you are incorrect when you state everything is up to God. Everything is up to us.
Jeremiah 29:13
You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.
The above verse states that God is not dispensing anything until we GO after HIM.
Further, the NT (Romans) tells us that we are all without excuse and God has placed the knowledge of Himself in everyone.
But of course if you are a 'seeker' or just 'emerging' then you don't really have to do any of that because you know, the Bible has not been interpreted correctly. And after all, DID GOD REALLY SAY ALL THOSE THINGS ... I MEAN COME ON, WHAT KIND OF LOVING GOD WOULD THROW A WONDERFUL HUMAN BEING INTO HELL WITH THE DEVIL?
Am I being somewhat sarcastic? Really? The Bible is so plain and so clear on where God stands with us and what we need to do. Only a fool or a deceived person would pick that book up and come up with what emergents and seekers are saying they find in Scripture.
The whole things is just an expanded version of "Has God really said?"
Yes, God has really said.
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 3/4/2010 11:07:19 AM
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solarflare
Posts: 1298
Joined: 6/16/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
So Jesus didn't say come as you are?
No, He didn't.
Anyone who does come, is drawn by the Holy Spirit. You cannot come and continue as you were. To the woman caught in adultery, Jesus said...Go and sin no more. He did not condemn her, but He said QUIT FORNICATING!!! If you come, you must stop sinning and because God has made provision for us to do just that, there is no excuse to continue and God will not accept that person unless they repent.
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely Revelation 22:17
You cannot continue to sin and partake of the water of life at the same time.
He also said "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter." Matthew 7:21
To do the will of God means to obey Him and you cannot obey Him if you do not know Him.....see above post.
There is no respect of persons with God. Romans 2:11 This does not mean He just accepts you the way you are and no probs, bro. God is not a hippie or a seeker. He is not emerging. God IS Spirit. He is eternal. God is Holy...He is NOT 'one of us'.
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 3/4/2010 11:42:58 AM
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themoodyexperience
Posts: 2601
Joined: 3/19/2008
From: Tuscumbia, Alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sue244
quote:
ORIGINAL: Reform_Dave
Maclaren's new kind of christian is just the old kind of heretic- Todd Friel
There is nothing new under the sun.
BTW I love Wretched Radio
I second that! There are some that are turned off by the snark, but with the crud that has invaded today's church, it's no longer time for kid gloves.
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 3/4/2010 12:55:44 PM
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cposey
Posts: 683
Joined: 8/20/2009
Status: offline
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Solarflare, I am far from a hippie and personally probably live my life far more structured and dogmatic than you.
However, God does accept us as we are. He will change us. No one has ever gotten right from the point of salvation until now. So it would do you good and myself to remember that point.
I would certainly appreciate you not addressing me in the sarcastic tone and judging me as some kind of hippie tree hugging idiot. I am far from it and i'd imagine that if you truly knew me, you wouldn't utter a single word in that tone.
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 3/4/2010 1:03:56 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 8180
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cposey
Solarflare, I am far from a hippie and personally probably live my life far more structured and dogmatic than you.
However, God does accept us as we are. He will change us. No one has ever gotten right from the point of salvation until now. So it would do you good and myself to remember that point.
A lot of unsupported assumptions in that post cposey.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 3/4/2010 2:24:54 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 1298
Joined: 6/16/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cposey
Solarflare, I am far from a hippie and personally probably live my life far more structured and dogmatic than you.
However, God does accept us as we are. He will change us. No one has ever gotten right from the point of salvation until now. So it would do you good and myself to remember that point.
I would certainly appreciate you not addressing me in the sarcastic tone and judging me as some kind of hippie tree hugging idiot. I am far from it and i'd imagine that if you truly knew me, you wouldn't utter a single word in that tone.
OK...I'm laughing...I never called you a hippie...that was your assumption. Sorry for the wrong impression. I truly was writing in a general fashion. Sorry about that.
You have no idea how I live my life and you probably are more dogmatic than I am. I don't do dogmatic.
dog·mat·ic [ dawg máttik, dog máttik ] or dog·mat·i·cal [ dawg máttik'l, dog máttik'l ]
adjective
Definition:
1. expressing rigid opinions: prone to expressing strongly held beliefs and opinions
2. relating to dogma: relating to or expressing a religious, political, philosophical, or moral dogma
Again, my apolgies as the post was not intended to you personally....please forgive me. No, I'm not being funny.
We are discussing the emergents here and I was referring to that particular movement...I did not agree with your post but there is no need for you to accuse me of sarcastic remarks and the like. I think if you reread that post and did not suspect me of trying to insult you, you would see my remarks are really general and not composed to insult anyone in particular.
< Message edited by solarflare -- 3/4/2010 2:32:13 PM >
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 3/4/2010 9:34:36 PM
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Reform_Dave
Posts: 897
Joined: 6/14/2009
From: Where the mountains touch the sky.
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sue244
quote:
ORIGINAL: Reform_Dave
Maclaren's new kind of christian is just the old kind of heretic- Todd Friel
There is nothing new under the sun.
BTW I love Wretched Radio
Oh me too, Friel is so solid and at the same time oh so funny. 
_____________________________
If the Gospel were more clearly and faithfully preached, fewer would profess to believe it.- A.W. Pink
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 3/4/2010 9:36:35 PM
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Reform_Dave
Posts: 897
Joined: 6/14/2009
From: Where the mountains touch the sky.
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: themoodyexperience
quote:
ORIGINAL: sue244
quote:
ORIGINAL: Reform_Dave
Maclaren's new kind of christian is just the old kind of heretic- Todd Friel
There is nothing new under the sun.
BTW I love Wretched Radio
I second that! There are some that are turned off by the snark, but with the crud that has invaded today's church, it's no longer time for kid gloves.
Amen to that. I love when he does the "Snark awards", i love learning and laughing at the same time.
_____________________________
If the Gospel were more clearly and faithfully preached, fewer would profess to believe it.- A.W. Pink
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