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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/23/2010 11:41:09 AM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
I am sorry my friend I don't understand your point. Frankly, I don't understand your question. I see not one inkling of being saved "by mental assent alone" in the OP!
I was asking if that was the definition of the OP. Faith equaling mental assent in Jesus. That is what I was trying to find out. :)
quote:
Grace in the NT has never ruled out obedience.
Pithy, but backwards, jj. Grace produces obedience!
Now we are talking about apples and oranges. However I agree with you that grace and faith both produce obedience. And also I was speaking about when we are saved.
quote:
Besides the bible is explicit in saying that salvation is given to those who obey and that the Holy Spirit is given to those who obey. Chapter and verse, please! My Bible explicitly states that the grace of God saves us when we appropriate it by faith in Christ. Only then are we empowered to obey God's Will.
My bible says the same thing.....however faith in Christ includes obedience. It always has biblically.
To answer your question specifically though.
Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."
Hebrews 5:9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
Also please note that the apostle John helped to define the biblical definition of belief by using a common form of Hebrew Parallelism here:
John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
The Greek word for disbelieve is the same as disobey.....double meaning and appropriately so biblically speaking! ;)
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/23/2010 11:43:45 AM
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Saved34
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quote:
But each and every one of us, you, me, any and every one of us who considers themselves a Believer, should everyday;
(2Co 13:5) Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? This is simply not true,RC. Again, you are not rightly diving the word when you present this verse of scripture as a command for believers to continually not know whether they are saved. Our Salvation is as sure as Christ himself. We are not to waver in our faith but have full assurance.Your application of that scripture is completely off base. (I don't know how else to put it with out being rude.) That would be called ,doubt. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin. We trust in the Lord Jesus Christ without wavering. Stablish, strengthen,settle. We already know we are saved and are only waiting for the return of our Lord.
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
Heb 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
Heb 6:19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
_____________________________
2Ti 2:3 Join me in suffering like a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:4 No one serving in the military gets mixed up in civilian matters, for his aim is to please his commanding officer.
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/23/2010 11:56:47 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved34
This is simply not true,RC. Again, you are not rightly diving the word when you present this verse of scripture as a command for believers to continually not know whether they are saved.
You are free to tell folks that might not be saved that they are eternally secure in their unbelief, but as for me I will not.
I will teach security for the true Believer, but also will show them the way in Scripture to know that they are saved, and not like the folks in Mathew 7.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/23/2010 12:07:58 PM
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mysteryofgospel
Posts: 252
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JJ,
I didn't know if your statement on 'mental assent alone' was rhetorical? Mental assent, to me, implies a reasoning of thought. We don't reason salvation.
God's two fold contract with us as Paul writes in Romans 10 is believing in one's heart unto righteousness and confessing with one's mouth unto salvation.
The heart is much deeper than the mind and is something that is hard to see in another, which is why we don't judge others because we don't know their hearts.
Second, anyone who talks about grace covering all your sins, so continue in sin, has missed Romans 6, (let sin abound that grace may abound, God forbid!).
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/23/2010 4:42:09 PM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mysteryofgospel
JJ,
I didn't know if your statement on 'mental assent alone' was rhetorical? Mental assent, to me, implies a reasoning of thought. We don't reason salvation.
God's two fold contract with us as Paul writes in Romans 10 is believing in one's heart unto righteousness and confessing with one's mouth unto salvation.
The heart is much deeper than the mind and is something that is hard to see in another, which is why we don't judge others because we don't know their hearts.
Second, anyone who talks about grace covering all your sins, so continue in sin, has missed Romans 6, (let sin abound that grace may abound, God forbid!).
Mental assent is intellectually believing something is true.
Paul in Romans 10 is not teaching the Romans how they need to be saved initially. They are already saved. Besides Romans begins and ends with obedience of faith.
Romans 10:13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
The same Paul who wrote that is the same Paul who was commanded this
Acts 22:16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.'
Calling on his name is what we do at baptism.
Plus Romans 10 comes after Romans 6 which is speaking about baptism.
And no one is talking about grace covering all sins so that we can continue to sin that I am aware of here.
Jesus told the Jews who had believed him that they needed to obey his word and then they will be disciples and set free.
John 8:31-32
So Jesus says right there belief is not alone......saving faith always is accompanied by action.
Abraham's life exemplifies this concept as well.
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/23/2010 5:35:53 PM
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mysteryofgospel
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JJ,
Nowhere does the Bible teach about intellectual belief because our ways are not His ways, our thoughts are not His thoughts. In fact Paul writes to avoid philosophical arguments in Colossians 2:8
Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the traditions of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
There are things we will never understand until we are in heaven. That is why we believe from the heart, not from the head.
Paul is literally writing to the Jews in Romans 10 but also to all those who read the words who come after, 10:13, 'everyone', as you posted, or 'whoever', as my Bible reads, and until Jesus returns.
Paul starts verse 18, "But I say, have they not heard? He is speaking literally of the Israelites of Isaiah's day but conceptually to all who read the words who came after them.
Your reference to John 8:31-32 does not use the word obedience. it uses the word 'abide'.
I have no contention that after one is saved he must do good works, but he is not saved by works.
Rc had said something about pastors preaching about continuing in sin back on page 5, I think.
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/23/2010 7:26:59 PM
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jjbird
Posts: 828
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mysteryofgospel
JJ,
Nowhere does the Bible teach about intellectual belief because our ways are not His ways, our thoughts are not His thoughts. In fact Paul writes to avoid philosophical arguments in Colossians 2:8
Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the traditions of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
There are things we will never understand until we are in heaven. That is why we believe from the heart, not from the head.
Understand until we are in heaven? Understand what?
quote:
Paul is literally writing to the Jews in Romans 10 but also to all those who read the words who come after, 10:13, 'everyone', as you posted, or 'whoever', as my Bible reads, and until Jesus returns.
Paul starts verse 18, "But I say, have they not heard? He is speaking literally of the Israelites of Isaiah's day but conceptually to all who read the words who came after them.
Your reference to John 8:31-32 does not use the word obedience. it uses the word 'abide'.
I have no contention that after one is saved he must do good works, but he is not saved by works.
Rc had said something about pastors preaching about continuing in sin back on page 5, I think.
Faith is at the very heart of justification, not works Romans (vv.9-13).
This is the context of Romans vv.9-10, which do not tell us HOW to be saved, but only tell us on what basis we are saved: through faith.
Paul is not negating what he said in previous chapters about the importance of seeking God, living by faith, or being baptized.
Gentiles don't need to become Jews before becoming Christians. All who call on the name (Jew and Gentile, in context), will be saved.
Calling on the name of the Lord means relying on his authority, trusting in his goodness, righteousness, and salvation.
We call on the name of the Lord in baptism (Acts 22:16).
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/24/2010 12:00:11 AM
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Ezra
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quote:
Paul has never argued that grace is some how excluding obedience.
Neither does Paul say that we are saved by obedience. The fact of the matter is you could not obey God perfectly no matter how hard you tried. God demands perfection my friend, not obedience to some degree. And if you are not perfect, you cannot be accepted. Where does that leave you?
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/24/2010 6:54:18 AM
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Linkoln
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It seems that jjbird (I think I might know who he is) is espousing that baptism is the moment when a person is saved. This of course is Restoration Movement doctrine that I believe cannot be trusted. The old mental ascent argument falls flat. It's about a person placing their faith/trust in Christ as Lord. That is no simple task as some would believe. The Romans 10 passage mentioned is good but linking it to Acts 22 is a far stretch and bad interpretation skills.
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/24/2010 7:51:30 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1987
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Coffee County, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Linkoln
It seems that jjbird (I think I might know who he is) is espousing that baptism is the moment when a person is saved. This of course is Restoration Movement doctrine that I believe cannot be trusted. The old mental ascent argument falls flat. It's about a person placing their faith/trust in Christ as Lord. That is no simple task as some would believe. The Romans 10 passage mentioned is good but linking it to Acts 22 is a far stretch and bad interpretation skills.
So scripture does not interpret scripture? Or only certain scripture interprets only certain other scripture? I don't think linking Romans 10 to Acts 22 is a far stretch nor is it bad interpretation skills. However, teaching that either one of these Scripture passages says all that there is to know about how to be saved leaves knowledge of salvation incomplete.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
Abberation is how aberrant users of the English language spell aberration. -- Robert Hartwell Fiske
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/24/2010 9:36:20 AM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
Paul has never argued that grace is some how excluding obedience.
Neither does Paul say that we are saved by obedience. The fact of the matter is you could not obey God perfectly no matter how hard you tried. God demands perfection my friend, not obedience to some degree. And if you are not perfect, you cannot be accepted. Where does that leave you?
I never mentioned perfect obedience. Grace is there for our shortfall because we cannot obey perfectly. Only Jesus was perfectly obedient and why he was our atoning sacrifice.
Paul teaches and the rest of the NT writers teach us that obedience is part of saving faith. It is not one over the other. They both must work together!
John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
You cannot have faith without obedience and you cannot have obedience without faith.
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/24/2010 9:55:57 AM
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Saved34
Posts: 867
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quote:
Grace is there for our shortfall because we cannot obey perfectly That's a poor example of grace. You and I ARE shortfalls. Grace goes well beyond our short falls or inability to obey. Even when you were dead in trespasses and sins". There was no merit,or goodness ,or virtue about you, God bestows grace out of the kindness of his own heart. Grace is the exact opposite of merit or works.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
If that were to ever change it would no longer be grace but debt. We are indeed indebted to Christ ,which is why we serve him from the bowels of our renewed hearts. Not to maintain salvation, not to appease God's wrath, but in thankfulness for the mercies he has given us in Christ Jesus. We are already Saints, already saved, already seated in the heavenly with Christ Jesus. We are now to walk worthy of this high calling. We are royalty, it is a shame for royalty to live like common folk(the world) who are not called by God's name. Right now we live with all humility, and humbleness of mind, but in the coming ages we will live like Kings. We'll live in mansions(dwellings) like only an all wise God can fashion. This is why we live right and obey.
Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
_____________________________
2Ti 2:3 Join me in suffering like a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:4 No one serving in the military gets mixed up in civilian matters, for his aim is to please his commanding officer.
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/24/2010 10:10:05 AM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved34
quote:
Grace is there for our shortfall because we cannot obey perfectly That's a poor example of grace. You and I ARE shortfalls.
I wasn't providing the example of grace but only sharing one aspect of grace! Big difference! ;)
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/24/2010 12:09:33 PM
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mysteryofgospel
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JJ,
Romans 10:9,10 is exactly HOW we are saved.
We speak with our mouths confessing Jesus Christ to others as the first condition. We tell someone.
The second is believing in our hearts that Christ died on the cross for us, and even more so, He was resurrected. He laid down His life for us and picked it up again.
He conquered death.
Those two things are all we need to be born again.
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/24/2010 12:23:36 PM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mysteryofgospel
JJ,
Romans 10:9,10 is exactly HOW we are saved.
We speak with our mouths confessing Jesus Christ to others as the first condition. We tell someone.
The second is believing in our hearts that Christ died on the cross for us, and even more so, He was resurrected. He laid down His life for us and picked it up again.
He conquered death.
Those two things are all we need to be born again.
Why is Paul telling the Roman church (people who are saved) how to be saved?
That does not fit the context at all! Not at all!
You gotta read the argument Paul is making from chapter 9-11.
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/24/2010 6:50:34 PM
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Linkoln
Posts: 13
Joined: 3/26/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
quote:
ORIGINAL: mysteryofgospel
JJ,
Romans 10:9,10 is exactly HOW we are saved.
We speak with our mouths confessing Jesus Christ to others as the first condition. We tell someone.
The second is believing in our hearts that Christ died on the cross for us, and even more so, He was resurrected. He laid down His life for us and picked it up again.
He conquered death.
Those two things are all we need to be born again.
Why is Paul telling the Roman church (people who are saved) how to be saved?
That does not fit the context at all! Not at all!
You gotta read the argument Paul is making from chapter 9-11.
He is talking about salvation all throughout Romans. He is explaining what saved by grace through faith is. Why do we preach salvation in the Church? Because God desires that it is done.
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/24/2010 7:09:55 PM
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mysteryofgospel
Posts: 252
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JJ,
Paul is writing the Romans giving them, and all future generations, the proper doctrines to follow. He speaks throughout Romans to the Jews and the Greeks both, about the impartiality of God, ch. 10.
When he gets to chapter 9, he is speaking of his sorrow for his brethren because they will not listen to him but want to establish themselves in their own righteousness, which they, nor anyone else, can do.
Now Paul is not making up these rules on coming to Christ as he goes along. He gets them from John 3:18, Matthew 10:18 and Luke 12:8 where Jesus talks about what is necessary for man's salvation; believing and confessing Him.
Jesus said, "Also I say to you, whoever confesses Me before men, him the Son of Man also will confess before the angels of God."
I'm not sure where you are coming from about the argument Paul is discussing in 9-11. Perhaps it should be in a separate thread?
Great Divide 46,
Isn't that all the criminal did on his cross. Looking at Jesus, he said, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."
He both confessed Jesus as Lord and believed it prompting Jesus reply,
"Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/24/2010 7:27:46 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 8180
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mysteryofgospel
Isn't that all the criminal did on his cross. Looking at Jesus, he said, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."
He both confessed Jesus as Lord and believed it prompting Jesus reply,
"Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."
Do you cinsider Paradise to be Heaven, or the abode of the dead?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/24/2010 10:01:18 PM
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Saved34
Posts: 867
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: mysteryofgospel
Isn't that all the criminal did on his cross. Looking at Jesus, he said, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."
He both confessed Jesus as Lord and believed it prompting Jesus reply,
"Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."
Do you cinsider Paradise to be Heaven, or the abode of the dead?
Thanks
RC
The key to the verse is "thou Shalt be with me" . This vilest of the vile sinner had a guarantee from the creator of all things that he would be "with him". No greater place or blessing than that. Safe with his Lord and Savior.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Psa 139:9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
Psa 139:10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
_____________________________
2Ti 2:3 Join me in suffering like a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:4 No one serving in the military gets mixed up in civilian matters, for his aim is to please his commanding officer.
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/24/2010 10:51:51 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1828
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quote:
John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
That verse reads in the Greek "and he that is not subject (apeithon) to the Son shall not see life". This can mean either (a) refusal to believe, willful unbelief, or obstinacy, which the KJV has correctly stated, or (b)disobedience, which is not correct in this context.
To believe on the Lord Jesus Christ is to receive Him as your Lord and Savior, and when He becomes your Lord you become subject to Him.
But nowhere does Scripture teach that we are justified by faith + obedience. That is what the Catholics would have us believe, and it is false doctrine.
I already showed you where Scripture demands obedience to the Gospel, which means repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. You simply ignored that and continue to present your false doctrine, i.e. baptism is necessary for salvation. It is not.
If you want to take "obedience" to its logical conclusion, as I said you must be perfect even as the heavenly Father is perfect, because anything less means that you stand condemned before God. So make every effort to be perfect 100% of the time. If you break the Law in one tiny detail, you have broken the whole Law.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/25/2010 10:19:55 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 8180
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved34
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: mysteryofgospel
Isn't that all the criminal did on his cross. Looking at Jesus, he said, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."
He both confessed Jesus as Lord and believed it prompting Jesus reply,
"Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."
Do you cinsider Paradise to be Heaven, or the abode of the dead?
Thanks
RC
The key to the verse is "thou Shalt be with me" .
And where did Jesus go on that day?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/25/2010 10:54:00 AM
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mysteryofgospel
Posts: 252
Joined: 8/12/2009
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rc,
I gotta run. Not sure where you are going with this but if Jesus is in Paradise, I want to be with Him wherever that may be. And I will be there with you also, won't I?
Saved 34, Well said of the psalm verses.
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/25/2010 11:10:03 AM
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Eutychus
Posts: 9189
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: offline
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quote:
Do you cinsider Paradise to be Heaven, or the abode of the dead?
There were, according to Jesus parable of Lazarus & the rich man, two distinct sections of the abode of the dead prior to the Resurrection, and they were separated by a great gulf. One was a place of great torment and the other described as Abraham's bossom.
I cannot imagine Jesus telling the thief that as a result of his faith in Him that he would be joining Christ in a place of torment. So Jesus must have been in the other place with the thief.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/25/2010 2:31:35 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1828
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quote:
And where did Jesus go on that day?
While this question is not totally relevant, the answer is that on that same day both Christ and that thief who was saved went to Hades where the OT saints were with Abraham (Abraham's bosom) waiting for the resurrection of Christ.
Christ already saw prophetically this part of Hades in Paradise, since on the third day He would take all the OT saints with Him to Paradise in the New Jerusalem. That was already an accomplished fact in the mind of God and of Christ. Therefore He could say to that thief "Today".
The real issue is that this criminal with a long "rap-sheet" was saved by God's grace because he believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and called Him "Lord" on the cross. The new "Bible" versions have deleted "Lord" from his words to Jesus to undermine the truth. This incident also nullifies the false teaching that water baptism is necessary for salvation.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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The man was saved and I'll shake his hand and one day.