|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
|
[Poll]
|
Can the NT exist without the OT?
|
| I don't know |
|
| I don't care |
|
| Tell me |
|
| What is the relevance? |
|
| no |
|
| yes |
|
Total Votes : 50
|
(last vote on : 5/26/2010 9:13:00 AM)
(Poll will run till: 1/1/2011 12:00:00 AM)
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/5/2010 5:03:29 PM
|
|
|
Lochem_Eved_lAdonai
Posts: 482
Joined: 12/8/2009
From: many places
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lochem_Eved_lAdonai
I was NEVER taught exactly how MUCH was fulfilled in Yeshua until I came to Messianic Judaism.
I grieve that this is all too common an experience. I was taught from childhood to recognize Christ in all of scripture beginning with Gen 1:1.
Because of this, I wish Messianic believers came here to share that understanding and insight, but sadly it's mostly about how wrong the "christians" perceive the practice of the law, or our relationship to the law. It's nearly secondary if occurring at all, to emphasize the revelation of Christ in the OT.
without going into all the ins and outs of the Practice of the Law... which I view as the Guarding of the Father's Instruction... I lament the same. In a way what was true of Paul's day is true of ours as well... :
Acts 21:20 On hearing it, they praised God; but they also said to him, "You see, brother, how many tens of thousands of believers there are among the Judeans, and they are all zealots for the Torah. 21 Now what they have been told about you is that you are teaching all the Jews living among the Goyim to apostatize from Moshe, telling them not to have a b'rit-milah for their sons and not to follow the traditions.
the zeal of the Judean Believers was not condemned but their point of view concerning Paul was warped by Slander.
I have been told much the same things about Christianity. Prove me wrong.
It is hard sometimes to see Just how much we are brothers when we differ on these issues so sharply. But family is family... you can chose friends but family we had better find a way to get close to because whether we like it or not we are all on the same team and will be stuck forever with our debating partners. LOLOLOLOL
_____________________________
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 6:4-9
Vaiyikra (Leviticus) 19:18
Beresheet (Genesis) 12:1-3, 15:4-6, 15:18-21, 17:1-27, 25:21-26
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 28
Tehillim (Psalms) 137
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/5/2010 5:10:21 PM
|
|
|
Corne
Posts: 1885
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lochem_Eved_lAdonai
I have been told much the same things about Christianity. Prove me wrong.
Do not know what you're saying above.
You are a messianic, what's keeping you from sharing about CHRIST in the OT?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/5/2010 7:13:14 PM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 8180
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT?
Absolutely it can, the OT is helpful expecially in the area of History; but the NT contains on its own everything needed for one to find salvation, lead a Holy Sanctified life, and be prepared for the soon coming of Christ.
Thanks
R C
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/5/2010 9:31:35 PM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 2722
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
It's not, "Wow aren't we glad He didn't mess up His mission" it's, "Wow, we're so glad He is who He is and was guaranteed to succeed.
How about "Wow, this Yeshua guy really is HaMeshiach and not a false prophet like so many others?" Until it is determined that He meets the standard He set in the Tanach, how can one be sure He is HaMeshiach. The followers of Mohammed and Bahulah can make the same claim if there is no standard that one can use to count them out.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have erred and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/5/2010 9:39:46 PM
|
|
|
Corne
Posts: 1885
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
It's not, "Wow aren't we glad He didn't mess up His mission" it's, "Wow, we're so glad He is who He is and was guaranteed to succeed.
How about "Wow, this Yeshua guy really is HaMeshiach and not a false prophet like so many others?" Until it is determined that He meets the standard He set in the Tanach, how can one be sure He is HaMeshiach. The followers of Mohammed and Bahulah can make the same claim if there is no standard that one can use to count them out.
It has been determined and we. are. believers.
JESUS IS THE STANDARD.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/6/2010 12:21:40 AM
|
|
|
Ezra
Posts: 1828
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT?
Absolutely it can, the OT is helpful expecially in the area of History; but the NT contains on its own everything needed for one to find salvation, lead a Holy Sanctified life, and be prepared for the soon coming of Christ.
Thanks
R C
RC:
Since God in His infinite wisdom gave us both Testaments, it would be most unwise to suggest to anyone that the NT can stand on its own without the OT. In a pinch, the NT will serve all the purposes you have mentioned, and if there are limited resources, distributing the NT in itself will suffice to spread the Gospel. But if we are to fully know the mind of Christ and of God, then the entire Bible is a necessity (2 Tim. 3:16,17).
Without Genesis we cannot fully understand Revelation.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/6/2010 12:31:38 AM
|
|
|
Ezra
Posts: 1828
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
Isn't that Covenant theology???
I am not sure what Covenant theology is.
Covenant theology is a false system of theology that says that there are fundamentally only two covenants -- the Covenant of Works made with Adam and the Covenant of Grace made with mankind.
A close study of the first three chapters of Genesis does not reveal any such Covenant of Works. And there are many other covenants that are found in Scripture which cannot be all lumped together.
To keep things very simple the Old Covenant (Testament) is also the Law of Moses and the New Covenant (Testament) is also the Law of Christ. The Old Covenant is obsolete and the New Covenant is eternal.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/6/2010 8:47:19 AM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 8180
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
Since God in His infinite wisdom gave us both Testaments, it would be most unwise to suggest to anyone that the NT can stand on its own without the OT. In a pinch, the NT will serve all the purposes you have mentioned, and if there are limited resources, distributing the NT in itself will suffice to spread the Gospel. But if we are to fully know the mind of Christ and of God, then the entire Bible is a necessity (2 Tim. 3:16,17).
Without Genesis we cannot fully understand Revelation.
The OT is important, but the New can stand on its own as I said.
quote:
Absolutely it can, the OT is helpful expecially in the area of History; but the NT contains on its own everything needed for one to find salvation, lead a Holy Sanctified life, and be prepared for the soon coming of Christ.
I would humbly ask for you to give us some OT passages (That are not repeated in the New) without which a person could not find salvation, lead a Holy Sanctified lide, and be prepared for the soon coming of Christ?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/6/2010 9:34:18 AM
|
|
|
zoebob
Posts: 7152
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: land of limbo
Status: online
|
quote:
I would humbly ask for you to give us some OT passages (That are not repeated in the New) without which a person could not find salvation, lead a Holy Sanctified lide, and be prepared for the soon coming of Christ?
It was pointed out earlier in the thread that if there was no OT we would not have the quotes from it in the NT so you need to consider the NT without Quotes from the OT
_____________________________
L-R: DD1, Ellies DS2, DD2, Ellies DS1
L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/6/2010 10:08:03 AM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 8180
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: zoebob
quote:
I would humbly ask for you to give us some OT passages (That are not repeated in the New) without which a person could not find salvation, lead a Holy Sanctified lide, and be prepared for the soon coming of Christ?
It was pointed out earlier in the thread that if there was no OT we would not have the quotes from it in the NT so you need to consider the NT without Quotes from the OT
And IMHO. t'he Holy Spirit had the writers of the New Tesatment include all of the OLD that was pertinant to Salvation, living a Holy Sanctified life, and instruction on being prepared for the soon coming of LOrd.
And most of the NT references to the OT seems to be to convince Jews that Jesus was the Messiah.
I am a Gentile, so there is no confliction in my accepting the NT as the Word of God, and Jesus as Savior.
On the rare occasion when I share the Gospel with practicing Jews, I utilize a lot of the Old Testament.
.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/6/2010 11:53:20 AM
|
|
|
mysteryofgospel
Posts: 252
Joined: 8/12/2009
Status: offline
|
All,
This question to me is an example of an omphaloskepsis, one who contemplates his navel.
The old testament does exist, why venture into philosophy, that Paul warns us from which to stay away.
Then there is the area of discussion about the old testament not being necessary for salvation, which just shows arrogance of those who say they don't need it, in my opinion.
Will the one who contends with God correct Him? Job 40:2
The old testament is filled with examples we are to use, as teachers, that both bring people to the understanding of who Christ is, and how we are to live as His new creations.
I currently am speaking about the bride of Christ and the different aspects of the bridal ceremony: the veil, the pledge, the token of His pledge, the bride price, the vows and the bridal gown. The book of Ruth is the perfect God-breathed example of all those facets of the bridal ceremony, not just some irrelevant history. Ruth ties together, as a picture, God's intent of how we are to prepare ourselves for being Christ's bride.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/6/2010 2:01:27 PM
|
|
|
Corne
Posts: 1885
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: zoebob
quote:
I would humbly ask for you to give us some OT passages (That are not repeated in the New) without which a person could not find salvation, lead a Holy Sanctified life, and be prepared for the soon coming of Christ?
It was pointed out earlier in the thread that if there was no OT we would not have the quotes from it in the NT so you need to consider the NT without Quotes from the OT
To eliminate the OT quotes from the NT would make it a DIFFERENT NT. So are we asking about the real NT or an imagined NT?
And are we asking if the OT matters now days, or are we asking if in the less than ideal scenario, could it stand alone?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/6/2010 2:04:34 PM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 8180
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: mysteryofgospel
The old testament is filled with examples we are to use, as teachers, that both bring people to the understanding of who Christ is, and how we are to live as His new creations.
Maybe you can supply us with some passages from the OT, that are not repeated in the NT, without which salvation, sanctification, and eventually glorification is not possible.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/6/2010 3:28:53 PM
|
|
|
zoebob
Posts: 7152
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: land of limbo
Status: online
|
quote:
Maybe you can supply us with some passages from the OT, that are not repeated in the NT, without which salvation, sanctification, and eventually glorification is not possible. Bolded mine
Perhaps this is true...perhaps in a hypothetical analysis. However, I would say it's safe to say that there are or will be some (besides practicing Jews) who don't come to Christ without studying the OT too. If so, and since it would be impossible on this earth to prove the negative, then yes the OT is necessary because there are (and/or will be) those who have come to Christ and needed the OT to be convinced.
_____________________________
L-R: DD1, Ellies DS2, DD2, Ellies DS1
L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/6/2010 3:59:06 PM
|
|
|
Ezra
Posts: 1828
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: mysteryofgospel
The old testament is filled with examples we are to use, as teachers, that both bring people to the understanding of who Christ is, and how we are to live as His new creations.
Maybe you can supply us with some passages from the OT, that are not repeated in the NT, without which salvation, sanctification, and eventually glorification is not possible.
Thanks
RC
That is not the issue. So let me ask you, What about prayer and worship? Where would we be without the book of Psalms? And who was the Author?
More importantly, what did Christ say about the OT, and if He said that all of it spoke of Him, what right has anyone to claim that it is unnecessary? See Luke 24:25-27, 32, 44-48.
Also, the Gospel itself would be incomplete without the quotations from the OT as spoken by Peter on the Day of Pentecost. See Acts chapter 2. Paul says that "Christ died for our sins ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES" (1 Cor. 15:3) and "He rose again the third day ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES" (v. 4). This passage in itself tells us that there is no denying the necessity of the OT as pertains to the Gospel.
Christians must insist in this day of apostasy that the entire Bible -- all 66 books -- is essential for all believers, whether we perceive it or not. It is God who declares its importance not man (2 Tim. 3:16,17).
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/6/2010 4:17:35 PM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 8180
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
Christians must insist in this day of apostasy that the entire Bible -- all 66 books -- is essential for all believers, whether we perceive it or not. It is God who declares its importance not man (2 Tim. 3:16,17).
So you would include the Apocrythal Books in this reading that is necessary to find Christ. I mean they were even in the King James Version until the late 1800's.
quote:
Also, the Gospel itself would be incomplete without the quotations from the OT as spoken by Peter on the Day of Pentecost. See Acts chapter 2. Paul says that "Christ died for our sins ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES" (1 Cor. 15:3) and "He rose again the third day ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES" (v. 4). This passage in itself tells us that there is no denying the necessity of the OT as pertains to the Gospel.
Not at all, I believe the New Testament is true and complete and I believe this through Faith. The New Testament address "Christ dying for our sins" and the "Three day thingy"
And Peter was speaking to Jews in Acts chapter 2. I have previously stated that when sharing the Gospel with practicing Jews that the OT is a must; but not for Gentiles.
When Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles and preached at Mars Hill; he did not use the Old Testament, for it meant nothing to those tp whom he was bringing the Gospel.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/6/2010 4:17:56 PM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 2722
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
It's not, "Wow aren't we glad He didn't mess up His mission" it's, "Wow, we're so glad He is who He is and was guaranteed to succeed.
How about "Wow, this Yeshua guy really is HaMeshiach and not a false prophet like so many others?" Until it is determined that He meets the standard He set in the Tanach, how can one be sure He is HaMeshiach. The followers of Mohammed and Bahulah can make the same claim if there is no standard that one can use to count them out.
It has been determined and we. are. believers.
JESUS IS THE STANDARD.
How is it that we know that?
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have erred and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/6/2010 4:27:37 PM
|
|
|
Corne
Posts: 1885
Status: offline
|
As I have pointed out, I have been speaking to a specific perspective of believers. Not to the issue of seekers.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/6/2010 4:30:25 PM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 2722
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
As I have pointed out, I have been speaking to a specific perspective of believers. Not to the issue of seekers.
So am I. Again, how do we know He is the standard. Just because He says so?
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have erred and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/6/2010 4:42:18 PM
|
|
|
Corne
Posts: 1885
Status: offline
|
Yes.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/6/2010 5:02:00 PM
|
|
|
Ezra
Posts: 1828
Status: offline
|
quote:
So you would include the Apocrythal Books in this reading that is necessary to find Christ. I mean they were even in the King James Version until the late 1800's.
Christ specifically excluded the Apocrypha by mentioning only (1) the Law of Moses (Torah), (2) the Prophets (Nebiim), and (3) the Psalms (Kethubim) in Luke 24:44. These were the 24 books of the Hebrew Tanakh which became the 39 books of our OT. The only reason that they are 39 is because several books were split into their components.
As to the inclusion of the Apocrypha in the original KJV, if you were to read the original preface "The Translators to the Reader" you would find that the translators considered Scripture to be confined to "the Scriptures in the Hebrew tongue" and separated the Apocrypha by a caption at the end of the OT which said "The End of the Prophets".
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/6/2010 5:25:21 PM
|
|
|
mysteryofgospel
Posts: 252
Joined: 8/12/2009
Status: offline
|
Rc,
Jesus said in John 5:46, 47, "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me.
But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"
And how can the hearer, Jewish or Gentile, believe the crossing of the Red Sea, or the passover of death that occurred to the Egyptians if they don't hear the story?
All these old testament stories make up who Jesus is and add to one's faith.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/6/2010 5:32:05 PM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 8180
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: mysteryofgospel
Rc,
Jesus said in John 5:46, 47, "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me.
But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"
And how can the hearer, Jewish or Gentile, believe the crossing of the Red Sea, or the passover of death that occurred to the Egyptians if they don't hear the story?
All these old testament stories make up who Jesus is and add to one's faith.
First he was speaking to Jews that had first hand knowlege of Moses, the Passover, etc.
If I had never heard of the Red Sea crossing, it would have had no, and I mean none, zero, nada, zip, influence in my Believing in Christ.
When Jesus was praying with His diciples in John; Jesus says
(Joh 17:20) Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Jesus said that we would believe on Him through the words of the diciples which would be the New Testament.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/6/2010 9:25:39 PM
|
|
|
navyblueret
Posts: 937
Joined: 11/29/2008
From: S/W Nebraska
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: mysteryofgospel
Rc,
Jesus said in John 5:46, 47, "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me.
But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"
And how can the hearer, Jewish or Gentile, believe the crossing of the Red Sea, or the passover of death that occurred to the Egyptians if they don't hear the story?
All these old testament stories make up who Jesus is and add to one's faith.
First he was speaking to Jews that had first hand knowlege of Moses, the Passover, etc.
If I had never heard of the Red Sea crossing, it would have had no, and I mean none, zero, nada, zip, influence in my Believing in Christ.
When Jesus was praying with His diciples in John; Jesus says
(Joh 17:20) Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Jesus said that we would believe on Him through the words of the diciples which would be the New Testament.
Thanks
RC
Brother RC, Shalom.
I must offer an opinion, I believe worthy of your attention: You cannot say what you said, because you 'Have' been exposed to the OT, and therefore cannot say beyond a shadow of a doubt that you would have found Messiah, Jesus, without the OT.
Please remember that the Apostles, and disciples spread the word not from the NT, but from the OT, for over thirty or forty years, until there had been enough letters, and so on, written, to allow people to teach Jesus from the 'New' prospective. Almost every reference made by any Apostle, was to the Tanach, not to anything their brothers preached; not even Paul, other than when he offered his own opinion.
I would like to say that I could find 'Provable' (inserted Mar 6, for clarity) truth in NT, without OT, but in all honesty, cannot.
In Messiah. His Blessing, my brother. Arley
< Message edited by navyblueret -- 3/6/2010 10:49:53 PM >
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/6/2010 10:10:13 PM
|
|
|
Corne
Posts: 1885
Status: offline
|
This would mean people need to be taught scripture, lots and lots of it before accepting and following Christ. It doesn't often work that way does it?
It is said by Paul that He preached Christ and Christ crucified.
(disclaimer: I am PRO OT)
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
