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What Idols Do You See in the Church Today? - 2/25/2010 3:53:58 PM
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Fritzpw_Admin
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quote:
The Opportunity of Disenchantment Tim Keller - Pastor, Author "There are more idols in the world than there are realities." Friedrich Nietzsche, Twilight of the Idols A Strange Melancholy After the global economic crisis began in mid-2008, there followed a tragic string of suicides of formerly wealthy and well-connected individuals. The acting chief financial officer of Freddie Mac, the Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation, hanged himself in his basement. The chief executive of Sheldon Good, a leading U.S. real estate auction firm, shot himself in the head behind the wheel of his red Jaguar. A French money manager who invested the wealth of many of Europe's royal and leading families, and who had lost $1.4 billion of his clients' money in Bernard Madoff's Ponzi scheme, slit his wrists and died in his Madison Avenue office. A Danish senior executive with HSBC Bank hanged himself in the wardrobe of his £500-a-night suite in Knightsbridge, London. When a Bear Stearns executive learned that he would not be hired by JPMorgan Chase, which had bought his collapsed firm, he took a drug overdose and leapt from the twenty-ninth floor of his office building. A friend said, "This Bear Stearns thing…broke his spirit." It was grimly reminiscent of the suicides in the wake of the 1929 stock market crash. In the 1830s, when Alexis de Tocqueville recorded his famous observations on America, he noted a "strange melancholy that haunts the inhabitants…in the midst of abundance." Americans believed that prosperity could quench their yearning for happiness, but such a hope was illusory, because, de Tocqueville added, "the incomplete joys of this world will never satisfy [the human] heart." This strange melancholy manifests itself in many ways, but always leads to the same despair of not finding what is sought. There is a difference between sorrow and despair. Sorrow is pain for which there are sources of consolation. Sorrow comes from losing one good thing among others, so that, if you experience a career reversal, you can find comfort in your family to get you through it. Despair, however, is inconsolable, because it comes from losing an ultimate thing. When you lose the ultimate source of your meaning or hope, there are no alternative sources to turn to. It breaks your spirit. What is the cause of this "strange melancholy" that permeates our society even during boom times of frenetic activity, and which turns to outright despair when prosperity diminishes? De Tocqueville says it comes from taking some "incomplete joy of this world" and building your entire life on it. That is the definition of idolatry. A Culture Filled with Idols To contemporary people the word idolatry conjures up pictures of primitive people bowing down before statues. The biblical book of Acts in the New Testament contains vivid descriptions of the cultures of the ancient Greco-Roman world. Each city worshipped its favorite deities and built shrines around their images for worship. When Paul went to Athens he saw that it was literally filled with images of these divinities (Acts 17:16). The Parthenon of Athena overshadowed everything, but other deities were represented in every public space. There was Aphrodite, the goddess of beauty; Ares, the god of war; Artemis, the goddess of fertility and wealth; Hephaestus, the god of craftsmanship. Our contemporary society is not fundamentally different from these ancient ones. Each culture is dominated by its own set of idols. Each has its "priesthoods," its totems and rituals. Each one has its shrines—whether office towers, spas and gyms, studios, or stadiums—where sacrifices must be made in order to procure the blessings of the good life and ward off disaster. What are the gods of beauty, power, money, and achievement but these same things that have assumed mythic proportions in our individual lives and in our society? We may not physically kneel before the statue of Aphrodite, but many young women today are driven into depression and eating disorders by an obsessive concern over their body image. We may not actually burn incense to Artemis, but when money and career are raised to cosmic proportions, we perform a kind of child sacrifice, neglecting family and community to achieve a higher place in business and gain more wealth and prestige. Read the rest of The Opportunity of Disenchantment What Idols Do You See in the Church Today?
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Fred "Fritz" Alberti Director of Social Media fritz@salemwebnetwork.com Read today's Bible verse from my favorite online Bible
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RE: What Idols Do You See in the Church Today? - 2/25/2010 7:01:07 PM
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deermousie
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Francis Schaeffer said in the 70s that America worshipped personal peace and prosperity, but since then I think we've added freedom from legitimate authority and political correctness. Our sin natures rule and the world is squashing us into its mold.
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People died to give you the Bible in your language. Read it. Eat it. Dwell in it. Rightly divide it. Live it. Laugh, dance, praise your God, and go read some more. And God bless you.
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RE: What Idols Do You See in the Church Today? - 2/25/2010 7:13:51 PM
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heremainsfaithful
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In the church? Tradition Religious pride Non-deities - i.e. people who follow a man rather than God, elevating flesh and blood people to God status Physical elements - i.e. my great-grand-pappy bought that carpet, and you ain't changing it!
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Jer. 29:11, II Tim. 2:13, Jude 24, 25 https://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.aspx?bookid=58896 Eihstein's IQ may be higher than mine, but God's IQ is higher than anyone's.
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RE: What Idols Do You See in the Church Today? - 2/25/2010 7:35:31 PM
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gralan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deermousie Francis Schaeffer said in the 70s that America worshipped personal peace and prosperity, but since then I think we've added freedom from legitimate authority and political correctness. Our sin natures rule and the world is squashing us into its mold. I agree with your assessment, and thanks for bringing up brother Schaeffer. Most people's eyes glaze over when I bring him up. It is particularly dangerous when you link freedom from legitimate authority with a mild version of Christianity. They question the Holy Spirit, the Bible, christian history; the new iconoclast. If Barna is correct, a majority of self-professed Evangelicals do not believe in Ultimate Truth. This means they've completely missed the Gospel. The biggest idol I see in the church, as always, has been the self.
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suffering servant, gralan, BTh student TGSAT //TrinityTheology.org/ //freecourses.trinitytheology.org/ The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever...
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RE: What Idols Do You See in the Church Today? - 2/25/2010 8:12:48 PM
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SonInMe1
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The church itself.
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You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. James 4:4
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RE: What Idols Do You See in the Church Today? - 2/25/2010 8:25:54 PM
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deermousie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gralan The biggest idol I see in the church, as always, has been the self. Oooooooooooooooooooohhhh! Spot on, Gralan. Our old sin nature is always about me, me, me. I miss Rev. Schaeffer. I wish I'd had my head on straight enough to benefit from L'Abri, but that didn't happen and God is still on His throne. His dying words, as he caressed his Bible, were, "Precious, precious."
_____________________________
People died to give you the Bible in your language. Read it. Eat it. Dwell in it. Rightly divide it. Live it. Laugh, dance, praise your God, and go read some more. And God bless you.
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RE: What Idols Do You See in the Church Today? - 2/25/2010 9:12:54 PM
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Doctrinor
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In my town the idols are the pastors as put on top of Jesus Christ Himself sadly and the pastors [not sure how much] are like gods on earth that may not talk much about Jesus as to point to Him.Not all pastors would be such gods of course I do know as = =some are true people .See it is more about what human 'strength' does for Jesus then what Jesus has done that we needed for us as mere humans . Jesus is very alive now even though one can forget that because you look at others who say it is their works that matter as 'performances'..[WRong] And as Soninme says it is the 'church too is an idol if not the whole building and the program that does that.
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RE: What Idols Do You See in the Church Today? - 2/26/2010 12:05:03 AM
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RedRabbit
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I see sacrificing doctrine for experience as an idol in churches today. People want to be comfortable and have feel good experience; It's the me centered focus just being packaged differently with big screens, and chourses, candles and labryniths. In fact media has become an idol for the church. - EA
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RE: What Idols Do You See in the Church Today? - 2/26/2010 12:22:04 AM
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gralan
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Howdy, As I was reading your post I was remembering the 60s and 70s. I am thinking that the roots for the misdirection going on in the Christian Arena is due to individuals who were caught up in the "Free Me" movement and those who were educated by them. The local churches for too long have allowed many of the Bible colleges and seminaries to determine (1) the qualifications and qualities of Christian leaders and (2) the directions the church needs to go as a whole. Seminaries and their trainees often have sold the church the idea you have to be educated by the world in order to be a minister in God's church. I'm a seminary student myself. I do not say this lightly. I am just not comfortable with the way we've been franchised; the quality cannot go on if the quality doesn't go in. For those interested here is a link to an article by Alvin Plantinga which speaks to the issue I've raised previously in this reply: http://www.leaderu.com/truth/1truth10.html Just remember that God knows who are His. The Holy Spirit and the Church say "Come and drink". And like the white owl of the 60's said, "one of these days, we're gonna get you". Blest be the great God and Savior, the Bridegroom of the Church, and the faithful Son over the New Jerusalem. Holy Holy Holy. quote:
ORIGINAL: RedRabbit I see sacrificing doctrine for experience as an idol in churches today. People want to be comfortable and have feel good experience; It's the me centered focus just being packaged differently with big screens, and chourses, candles and labryniths. In fact media has become an idol for the church. - EA
< Message edited by gralan -- 2/26/2010 12:29:26 AM >
_____________________________
suffering servant, gralan, BTh student TGSAT //TrinityTheology.org/ //freecourses.trinitytheology.org/ The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever...
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RE: What Idols Do You See in the Church Today? - 2/26/2010 12:41:16 AM
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LCannon
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I think it was Elisabeth Elliot that said, 'Satan hasn't come up with any new temptations since the beginning time[but]he doesn't have to. His old stale ones work just fine because we're[mankind]an easy mark.' The 'idols' are same ones that feed our appetites, vanities and envies of the '...the world or the things in the world. The love of the Father is not in those who love the world; for all that is in the world--the desire of the flesh, the desire of the eyes, the pride in riches--comes not from the Father but from the world.'(1John 2:15,16)
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'No man can do a great and enduring work for God who is not a man of prayer and no man can be a man of prayer who doesn't give much time to praying.' E.M. Bounds
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RE: What Idols Do You See in the Church Today? - 2/26/2010 12:49:17 AM
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SamsonUSA
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Hi gralan, quote:
Seminaries and their trainees often have sold the church the idea you have to be educated by the world in order to be a minister in God's church. Do you feel a Seminarian earning a Master's degree in biblical studies while learning under some of the most well respected Theologians alive today are being "educated by the world?"
_____________________________
Ronald Reagan said, "I've noticed that everybody that is for abortion has already been born." Similarly, I've noticed that everyone who preaches Limited Atonement are already saved.
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RE: What Idols Do You See in the Church Today? - 2/26/2010 2:43:40 AM
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everjoyful
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SamsonUSA Hi gralan, quote:
Seminaries and their trainees often have sold the church the idea you have to be educated by the world in order to be a minister in God's church. Do you feel a Seminarian earning a Master's degree in biblical studies while learning under some of the most well respected Theologians alive today are being "educated by the world?" yes I think that trained ministers are essential because so few people are dedicated enough to reach a full scriptural understanding in a normal everyday setting. It does happen but not usually in the west. I think the biggest idol is self. People relying on their own efforts to try to create God's works in a community rather than being spirit led. And over organisation etc. church meetings must end at such and such a time.....sermons must be 40 minutes long. And money....those of us with less of it miss out on a great deal at church. (ie can't pay for retreats and visiting speakers, group meals out. It's crazy when money prevents someone catching the word.)
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RE: What Idols Do You See in the Church Today? - 2/26/2010 7:32:22 AM
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SonInMe1
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It has to be... blue carpet. I don't understand how anyone would want blue carpet in their church! Its...satanic.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. James 4:4
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RE: What Idols Do You See in the Church Today? - 2/26/2010 7:41:26 AM
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heremainsfaithful
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SonInMe, somebody's grandpappay donated that blue carpet! How dare you! And besides, in order to change it, the church by-laws state that a majority of the deacons and a two-thirds quorum of the congregation must vote before new carpet can be installed.
_____________________________
Jer. 29:11, II Tim. 2:13, Jude 24, 25 https://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.aspx?bookid=58896 Eihstein's IQ may be higher than mine, but God's IQ is higher than anyone's.
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RE: What Idols Do You See in the Church Today? - 2/26/2010 11:14:04 AM
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doinkdom
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RedRabbit I see sacrificing doctrine for experience as an idol in churches today. People want to be comfortable and have feel good experience; It's the me centered focus just being packaged differently with big screens, and chourses, candles and labryniths. In fact media has become an idol for the church. - EA Agreed and I would add another idol of "entitlement" to that list....I deserve...my right...me...me...me...
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My Uncles: Twins with younger brother in the middle
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RE: What Idols Do You See in the Church Today? - 2/26/2010 1:22:22 PM
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EsonTheSearcher
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Praise and Worship music is a monster in my area, especially with churches with a large portion of their congregation being below 30. I did not realize just how much of a monster it is until a few weeks ago when I saw a music director of a medium-sized church standing in line at Walmart. I asked him about booking my SG band there and I got a quick response: "That SG stuff is outdated and does not belong in the Church now..." I told him that there were still a few churches that used SG and the more-modern Contemporay P & W music. That made him even madder: "If your Church is not using P & W music, then your Church is not worshipping God. All those old hymns need to be discarded as well..." That's when I figured out what his idol was in his Church.
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RE: What Idols Do You See in the Church Today? - 2/26/2010 2:53:12 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
Do you feel a Seminarian earning a Master's degree in biblical studies while learning under some of the most well respected Theologians alive today are being "educated by the world?" In a sense this is very true. 1. The world says you are only qualified to do a job if you have a bachelors' or master's degree. This is exactly what the semiaries teach. 2. The world says that only professors are qualified to teach students. The seminaries teach the same. 2. The world says that the Bible may or may not be divinely inspired and is full of errors. A very large number of evangelical seminaries now hold to this view of partial inerrancy or no inerrancy.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: What Idols Do You See in the Church Today? - 2/26/2010 3:59:35 PM
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gralan
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Well SamsonUSA, I'm hoping we're getting off on the right foot. I mean no insult. To explain and answer your question: 1. Seminaries I'm familiar with require that you have a bachelors degree before you can pursue a Masters from them. Most people get their bachelors degree in a nonChristian educational setting. In this regard, the answer to your question is affirmative to what I stated. A student is required to get a worldly education prior to getting trained by those "most respected theologians". In regards to whether or not the seminary is training you according to worldly standards is another question, one I cannot ask since I do not know the educational philosophy and practice of your seminary. I'm in pursuit of a Masters degree in Theology. I'm having to go through the bachelor's program available in an associated college that approaches all material from a Christian worldview. 2. There are a couple of things we need to discuss primarily, so here goes: The Apostles were mainly fishermen and other leatherneckers. They did not get educated by the world in order for Jesus to appoint them disciples or apostles. In terms of education, its possible to go through any degree program and not end up learned. Not many churches look at gradepoint averages either, just like many employers. Some seminaries are poison to anyone in search of furthering their walk of faith while getting certified to do what their local church or other believers are convinced the student is called to do. Some seminaries do not require a person to first go through a process of determining if they are actually called into the servant role of ministry in the Body of Christ. Many seminaries follow certain patterns of instruction and presuppositions of how we know things and what its possible to know with certainty. Therefore Christians often depend upon a worldly standard of knowledge rather than a completely Christian standard. 3. Alvin Plantinga, Bruce Larson, the now deceased Francis Schaeffer, and others have been directing the church as a whole to think like Christians, especially in the fields of theology, philosophy, education, history, sciences, etc. The Church as a whole has not responded to the modern prophetic call. Some have rejected any meaningful standards of classic education, and this is wrong. 4. If one believes that a person must go to an official school in order to do the will of God or to minister in love, compassion, and with clear biblical insight, I'd say that person needs to also hold that no one should get married until they've been college educated in liberal arts with an emphasis on psychology. 5. Some seminaries pump out students that think like their seminary or their favorite instructors that tickled their ears, rather than being mainly biblically grounded. I know this to be true. Aside from sharing pulpits with "official ministers", intimate discussions with the same from multiple denominational settings. Is it possible to get a quality education under spectacular Christian leaders in a modern seminary? I absolutely know that to be true. I think it'd be interesting to have more discussion about this kind of thing, if you and any others would be interested in another thread in this direction. There is everything right with being properly educated. There is everything wrong with the idea that education (even seminary) makes one qualified to minister even as a choir director. The idea of being a minister and at the same time ignorant, unaware and undisciplined is horrendous. quote:
ORIGINAL: SamsonUSA Hi gralan, quote:
Seminaries and their trainees often have sold the church the idea you have to be educated by the world in order to be a minister in God's church. Do you feel a Seminarian earning a Master's degree in biblical studies while learning under some of the most well respected Theologians alive today are being "educated by the world?" my email is gcandj@gmail.com, and I always check my email before thinking about doing any forum activity (even required forum activity at my school's website). Feel free to contact me at my personal email.
_____________________________
suffering servant, gralan, BTh student TGSAT //TrinityTheology.org/ //freecourses.trinitytheology.org/ The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever...
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RE: What Idols Do You See in the Church Today? - 2/26/2010 7:05:08 PM
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SamsonUSA
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It is not my wish to go off topic but I would like to share a couple of quick responses. quote:
. The world says you are only qualified to do a job if you have a bachelors' or master's degree. This is exactly what the semiaries teach. You are painting with a very wide brush, Ezra. This view has never been expressed or implied where I attend. quote:
2. The world says that only professors are qualified to teach students. The seminaries teach the same. True, but for one very good reason. Accreditation. This is something that lies in the hands of the US Department of Education. I praise God for the low interest student loans that help enable me to attend grad school. quote:
The world says that the Bible may or may not be divinely inspired and is full of errors. A very large number of evangelical seminaries now hold to this view of partial inerrancy or no inerrancy. Again this is painting with a very wide brush. I have heard that this is true at various liberal Seminaries but the ones I considered hold to the view of complete and divine inerrancy of the original manuscripts. quote:
Sadly I have been in churches where thier doctrine is an idol. Unfortunately this is a very true statement. quote:
I'm in pursuit of a Masters degree in Theology. I'm having to go through the bachelor's program available in an associated college that approaches all material from a Christian worldview. This is awesome gralan. I am in agreement with most of your well thought out post. Perhaps we can discuss this more throughly in a different venue. May God bless you in your studies.
_____________________________
Ronald Reagan said, "I've noticed that everybody that is for abortion has already been born." Similarly, I've noticed that everyone who preaches Limited Atonement are already saved.
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RE: What Idols Do You See in the Church Today? - 2/26/2010 7:23:44 PM
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RedRabbit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LCannon I think it was Elisabeth Elliot that said, 'Satan hasn't come up with any new temptations since the beginning time[but]he doesn't have to. His old stale ones work just fine because we're[mankind]an easy mark.' The 'idols' are same ones that feed our appetites, vanities and envies of the '...the world or the things in the world. The love of the Father is not in those who love the world; for all that is in the world--the desire of the flesh, the desire of the eyes, the pride in riches--comes not from the Father but from the world.'(1John 2:15,16) Thanks for the quote from Elizabeth Elliot. That's a keeper.
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RE: What Idols Do You See in the Church Today? - 2/27/2010 7:52:12 PM
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Doctrinor
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To all -- I was just reading a book about how when Jesus returns the truth He in heaven judges or evaluates our works or service to Himself here on earth as in basically 1st COR 3 and it even was convicting or alarmed me though I knew it exists as scripture and will happen ..Said those people as Christians who live just for self will be like 'paupers' in heaven and those seek and do live for the Lord will be very close to Him up there [though that I am going to look into further as I think something is missing from it].. I do not want to be left out in eternity even if safe in heaven as I'd want to be in middle of the action. But it is also true we are saved by grace and that is ours now and in heaven.. The idea in Matt 6 we have treasure in heaven and can be very poor on earth if we are ,but be high in heaven and I know not put as to self of course.
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RE: What Idols Do You See in the Church Today? - 2/27/2010 8:00:30 PM
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tinstar
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A few have mentioned it before... the Pastor often is a big idol. When he reads something and gets all jazzed up about it, that's what the church does.
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RE: What Idols Do You See in the Church Today? - 2/27/2010 8:01:59 PM
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rcjames
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The following is some idols that can crop up; Buildings Pastors Music Size of congregation Doctrines Ministries Positions And sadly many more. Thanks RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion Read the first chapter of my latest book here; http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: What Idols Do You See in the Church Today? - 2/27/2010 8:09:51 PM
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tinstar
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In the Catholic Church, since some time after Vatican II, two camps have been set up with their own idols- Peace and Justice Catholics, and Right to Life Catholics. Think Nancy Pelosi vs. Pat Buchanan. In the Protestant Church this seems to be Biblical Literalists vs. Social Gospel Adherents. These are sacred idols that divide and sometimes destroy. I'm oversimplifying here, but I think this goes with what a previous poster said about "doctrine as idol". Couldn't agree more.
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