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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 3/12/2010 12:07:03 AM
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Walker311
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If we were allowed to see into the invisible world, we would all go nuts. God does not allow it to happen and for very good reason. We are visual beings swayed by what we see.
So, ghosts do not exist. There are spiritual beings in an unseen dimension created by God. Angels and fallen angels(demons). People are in the world. Souls of people go to heaven or to hell. They do not float around and they do not speak to anyone outside of where they exist. Period!
Jesus as a man prayed to God. He did not consult with ghosts or Godly men from times past. Anything that takes away our focus from Christ is exactly what Satan desires for us. If he observes an interest in ghosts, he can provide demonic situations to fuel it.
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 3/12/2010 12:47:14 AM
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wolfvanzandt
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Actually, if you take what Christ said literally, if we could see into the "spirit world" we wouldn't see anything because spirit is invisible.
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 3/13/2010 9:09:03 PM
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YvetteS
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1) Regarding the OP - No, absolutely not:
ECC 9 :5-6
For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing,
And they have no more reward,
For the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished;
Nevermore will they have a share
In anything done under the sun.
2) Regarding Samuel: The Lord had refused to communicate with Saul by prophet or dream or the special stones on the priest's ephod (probably because Saul had murdered the priest)
1 Sam 28:6 "And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD did not answer him, either by dreams or by Urim or by the prophets "
God would not ignore the methods of comminicating which he had ordained:
Exodus 28:30 (Urim)
Numbers 12:6 (Then He said,
“Hear now My words:
If there is a prophet among you,
I, the LORD, make Myself known to him in a vision;
I speak to him in a dream.)
Only to speak through that which He had expressly forbidden:
Leviticus 19:31
" 'Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 20:6
" 'I will set my face against the person who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute himself by following them, and I will cut him off from his people.
Leviticus 20:27
" 'A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.' "
Moreover God explicitly says He does not speak through Spiritists:
Isaiah 8:
"19And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
20To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them"
No light. Not "usually no light except for this one time that I wanted to make a point to Saul - after I had refused to talk to him through the methods I Myself ordained"
God would not help Saul "prostitute" and "defile" himself.
If God had sent Samuel after a medium summoned for him, then God would be misleading His people.
He would be opening a door for the belief that SOMETIMES - maybe very rarely - God speaks through mediums when other (Bible-approved) methods of commnicating with God fail.
Finally, in the 1 Chron 10 account of the same event, we read:
"So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;
14And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse."
The woman had a familiar spirit (demon) and Saul inquired of it
Furthermore, in the 1 Samuel 28, the spirit references Saul's failure with Amalek as the reason for God's displeasure - but makes no reference to what Saul has just done in seeking a medium. Chronicles specifically says this is a reason for Saul's downfall.
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 3/14/2010 12:45:35 PM
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PrimaryOvertone
Posts: 89
Joined: 2/5/2010
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quote:
ORIGINAL: YvetteS
1) Regarding the OP - No, absolutely not:
ECC 9 :5-6
For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing,
And they have no more reward,
For the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished;
Nevermore will they have a share
In anything done under the sun.
2) Regarding Samuel: The Lord had refused to communicate with Saul by prophet or dream or the special stones on the priest's ephod (probably because Saul had murdered the priest)
1 Sam 28:6 "And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD did not answer him, either by dreams or by Urim or by the prophets "
God would not ignore the methods of comminicating which he had ordained:
Exodus 28:30 (Urim)
Numbers 12:6 (Then He said,
“Hear now My words:
If there is a prophet among you,
I, the LORD, make Myself known to him in a vision;
I speak to him in a dream.)
Only to speak through that which He had expressly forbidden:
Leviticus 19:31
" 'Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 20:6
" 'I will set my face against the person who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute himself by following them, and I will cut him off from his people.
Leviticus 20:27
" 'A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.' "
Moreover God explicitly says He does not speak through Spiritists:
Isaiah 8:
"19And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
20To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them"
No light. Not "usually no light except for this one time that I wanted to make a point to Saul - after I had refused to talk to him through the methods I Myself ordained"
God would not help Saul "prostitute" and "defile" himself.
If God had sent Samuel after a medium summoned for him, then God would be misleading His people.
He would be opening a door for the belief that SOMETIMES - maybe very rarely - God speaks through mediums when other (Bible-approved) methods of commnicating with God fail.
Finally, in the 1 Chron 10 account of the same event, we read:
"So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;
14And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse."
The woman had a familiar spirit (demon) and Saul inquired of it
Furthermore, in the 1 Samuel 28, the spirit references Saul's failure with Amalek as the reason for God's displeasure - but makes no reference to what Saul has just done in seeking a medium. Chronicles specifically says this is a reason for Saul's downfall.
You have quoted a lot of scripture but you need to be very careful of context.
If you look at the Ecclesiastes passage in context Solomon is saying that people should be living the life that they have because that is what will matter to those who follow, No one cares how much a dead person knows or who they loved or hated. Since we can see from the parable of the Rich Man & Lazarus, the rich man was obviously thinking about his relatives and cared for them after death. Ecclesiastes is not saying the dead are just gone and cannot think etc. If that were the case then we have no hope.
As to, "God would not ignore the methods of comminicating which he had ordained" obviously God did choose to ignore those methods of communication.
As to, "Moreover God explicitly says He does not speak through Spiritists" the verse you quoted does not say that God does not communicate that way, it just says that His people SHOULD seek Him. Further, it says "If they speak NOT according to His word . . ." that there is no light in them. Since what Samuel told Saul happened, exactly as he said it would be, it is appearent that what was said WAS according to God's word.
As to, "God would not help Saul "prostitute" and "defile" himself" : Saul had alread defiled himself, there was no question of helping him do so, God sent Samuel specifically BECAUSE Saul had defiled himself.
Note: the I Chronicles passage is talking about a medium, There are two types of mediums or necromancers one type communicates with non-human spirits and the other communicates with the spirit of the dead. Since Saul specifically said he was looking for someone who speaks with the dead we are talking about the second kind. Your version (I am not sure which it is) says "one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it" but the NKJV says "because he consulted a medium for guidance" it does not say anything about a familiar spirit at all. While I am not a hebrew scholar the translation seems much more likely to have been closer to the NKJV. Perhaps there is someone with a Hebrew background who can shed light on this verse for us.
What translation are you using?
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 3/14/2010 4:05:55 PM
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YvetteS
Posts: 3
Joined: 10/26/2007
Status: offline
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Let me deal with just the first point for now:
quote:
ORIGINAL: YvetteS
1) Regarding the OP - No, absolutely not:
ECC 9 :5-6
For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing,
And they have no more reward,
For the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished;
Nevermore will they have a share
In anything done under the sun.
quote:
ORIGINAL: PrimaryOvertone
You have quoted a lot of scripture but you need to be very careful of context.
If you look at the Ecclesiastes passage in context Solomon is saying that people should be living the life that they have because that is what will matter to those who follow, No one cares how much a dead person knows or who they loved or hated.
I agree that we need to pay attention to the details of the surrounding texts, as well as the details that are in the actual text itself (exegesis).
In this case context includes the actual words Solomon spoke about the dead.
Solomon says "No more will THEY have any more share" in what is done among the living (the "they" in this case is the one who dies).
Solomon is talking about the person who has died - end of knowledge, end of love, end of hate, end of any share in what is done under the sun.
The argument Solomon presented is not "do as much as you can while alive, because other people won't care what you are doing while you are dead"
Rather, the motivation presented for doing well now is, "you won't be able to do ANYTHING when you are dead." Love, hate, and knowledge is gone.
In verse 10 he says
"Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going."
Verse 4 also adds more context:
"4 But for him who is joined to all the living there is hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they will die; ..."
The argument from the surrounding texts is not concerned with what the loved one thinks, but rather, what the person can do. It is only the living person that "can do" do anything in light of the fact that he will not be able to do or think anything in the grave.
Proper context demands that we accept what the text explicitly states can or cannot be done while dead. Proper context does not make an exact contradiction to Solomon's "If A" -- THEN "B" form of argument:
[b]If we are not going to be doing anything while dead
- Then we must do what we can with all our might while living
quote:
Since we can see from the parable of the Rich Man & Lazarus, the rich man was obviously thinking about his relatives and cared for them after death. Ecclesiastes is not saying the dead are just gone and cannot think etc.
The Rich Man and Lazurus is, as you mentioned, a parable. Christ adapted a popular Jewish myth with no basis in the Hebrew Bible, to make His own points:
There is no second chance after death: Luke 16:26
Even if somone was raised from the dead, signs and wonders would still not convince someone to believe and repent if they have been rejecting the scriptures Luke 16:31
The portrayal of Abraham being in charge of the saints, all the righteous being in Abraham's bosom, and dead people apparently praying to Abraham, are fictional elements of the story.
Burton Coffman, R.C. Sproul, Matthew Henry and Albert Barnes all say that this story was a non-literal parable, due to the fictional elements. (All of these people believe in an immortal soul)
quote:
If that were the case then we have no hope.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (New King James Version)
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Cor 15:13-19
"But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable."
Please note, the only hope that dead in Christ have is in the resurrection - not in what people are able to do while dead and awaiting the Second Coming of Christ. THIS is the Blessed Hope for believers that the New Testament writers focus on.
If the dead are not raised - believing saints have "perished"
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 3/16/2010 8:30:09 PM
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ForYeshua
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To answer the original question: Were Ghosts People: lets first take the question literally. Biblically Ghosts are some form of spirit of a person who has passed on, therefore technically Ghosts are NOT people. Therefore it appears ghosts are more aptly the spirit of people, but not the flesh themselves, but rather their essense.
Interestingly, the Bible is CLEAR that people, in the form of witches and mediums have the ability to summon spirits, see 1 Samuel 28. Further, from 1 Samuel 28, it is also apparent that spirits (like Sauls) do NOT want to be disturbed in their rest as we see in the Sauls case (the spirit summoned by the witch of Endor in 1 Samuel 28). Saul is disturbed his spirit has been summoned. BUT THE FACT OF THE SCRIPTURE REMAINS a ghost is a spirit of a deceased person. And i will go further and state they can be summoned by people like the witch of Endor, and we all know witches are part of the dark arts (sic). So I think the scriptures are clear...at the very least ghosts are spirits of people deceased awaiting the great day of the Lord, but they are NOT people as we know people. Could they also be the spirit of people destined for hell? The scripture does NOT answer this, but it stands to reason that is possible, all it takes is a person of the dark arts to summon the dead. This implies to me spirits MUST be summoned, and it is EVIL to do so. Secondly, spirits, at least those destine for Gods salvation dont appear to be too happy to be summoned by fleshly beings (this is a wild subject in itself because it means that God has allowed (on at least one occassion) evil acts of the flesh to be extended to a spirit at rest awaiting the last day judgements. After all, the witch of Endor could not have any ability that God did not allow (dont read this as God "condones" the acts of witches, scripture is clear concerning the evil nature of acts of witchcraft and mediums, rather its more about personal responsibility, we all get to choose between acts of good and evil, and God permits us to make those choices, suffer the consequences). Folks God WILL not be mocked be any such evil eminating from the will of the flesh to summon the dead. Praise God, Give HIM all the glory> Yeshua HaMoschiach
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 3/16/2010 8:42:10 PM
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ForYeshua
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my bad, I kept saying Saul, I meant to say Samuel <sigh> with respect to the ghost/spirit summoned by the witch of Endor. Chock it up to carelessness on my part, my apologies.
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 4/6/2010 2:08:51 PM
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Lady_Daffodil
Posts: 136
Joined: 10/15/2008
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quote:
I've had quite a lot of experience with ghosts so, whatever else I can say, they do exist. What they are is debatable. The Bible doesn't talk about a lot of things. Silence doesn't mean something doesn't exist - and, certainly, if a ghost is a disembodied spirit, then the Bible indicates that they exist - whether they would hang around earth or not - again debatable.
My take on ghosts is that they do exist. They're not necessarily demonic (although some may be), and that they're not the disembodied spirits of people. I don't even believe that they're paranormal. I lean toward the theory that space has the ability to record past events as a kind of memory. I would call such a memory a "shard". One reason I believe that is that there's a solid correlation between hauntings and proximity to large bodies of moving water. That indicates to me some kind of energy transfer phenomena. Haunting phenomena is accompanied by recordable energy phenomena.
Selma is one of the most haunted cities in the US and has a lot of traffic in paranormal investigators. When you point a night vision monocular up a staircase and see a procession of orbs coming down the staircase, you don't assign it to nonexistant phenomena.
As for whether a person can come back, the Bible doesn't make a strong statement yea or nay but it does say that the apparition seen by Saul was Samuel and it doesn't say that it was a trick. The only reason for a person to interpret it as a trick would be if they don't personally accept the possibility and they're including their own opinion as a premise in their evaluation. I don't know if it was Samuel or not - it's debatable - but I'm not wiling to form a strong opinion either way on the sparsity of information I have on the issue. Maybe some day, I'll ask him.
I've heard of that past events thing you mentioned, and I think it's entirely possible. I know that there definitely are spirits; there's a whole world we can't see. I also know that "ghosts" are not the spirits of former human beings. I enjoy a good ghost story, but I don't for a minute believe that it's really the ghost of grandma, or whoever. In the case of the event in the book of Samuel, I believe that God allowed that to happen for a purpose.
_____________________________
When I die, I won't be pushin' up daisies, I'll be pushin' up daffodils!
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 4/6/2010 2:22:34 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 9189
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PrimaryOvertone
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: PrimaryOvertone
..how much more clear do you want it...
Clear enough to match up with what the remainder of scripture reveals on the matter - like with the examples I've cited several times, Jesus and Paul. I'll be perfectly fine with that kind interpretation.
You want an example using Jesus. Mark 9 is the passage detailing the transfiguration. Who was there?...
Cool, God Incarnate summoned two of His servants from His Father's presence for a brief fellowship. They weren't floating around haunting places or people before or after. And Jesus wasn't a servant of Satan like a sorcerer or a medium.
Jesus told us about two departed souls. The rich man was in torment and unable to visit his brothers. Lazarus was in Abraham's bossom separated from the rich man by a great chasm. Neither were haunting any alive humans.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 4/7/2010 2:36:03 PM
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Expatriot
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King James says a "familiar Spirit." which would mean NOT a person's ghost or spirit. This sort of distinction would have been an essential in that era since they understood the differences in the two.
1Sa 28:8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
(KJV)
He wanted her to "Divine". This is the vital "context". Divination always involves spirits, not ghosts. It is forbidden on penalty of death. This proves the ghost reference doesn't fit here.
Pastor Chuck Smith insists on the KJV simply because newer versions leave things out or excessively modernize and I suspect this is one. The "proof" of ghosts using a witch's word from Scripture isn't the same as saying Scripture says it.
It should be noted, too, that Jesus talked with Elijah who never died as well as Moses, who's unwitnessed death is in some dispute despite Jude's reference to a Judaic legend, during the Transfiguration so the idea this entails ghosts has no merit.
One point to be made, Jesus walks on the water and they call asking if he's a ghost. he merely replies that it's him, he never rebukes them for mentioning ghosts. This likely means he was more concerned with the immediate message of his walking on water by faith than their misinformation.
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 4/8/2010 1:43:31 AM
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wolfvanzandt
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Necromancy isn't divination involving ghosts?
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 4/8/2010 8:02:05 AM
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The3rdDayHeShallRise
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No such thing.
_____________________________
God is good, all the time. And all the time, God is good.
Ephesians 2:8 Galatians 2:20
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 4/8/2010 8:40:14 AM
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poetessfree
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Good post memaw,
I know a sister in Christ who sees into the spirit world. God opened her eyes and she has witnessed seeing them sitting in her tree. She prays them away and they leave. She is not crazy or a fanatic but a woman of strong faith. As God opened the eyes for a servant to see angels written in 2Kings6- And Elisha prayed, and said, "LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain [was] full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha." So will the Lord open the eyes of some. But not all, for all are not able to handle that realm nor are strong enough in spirit.
But I have a question regarding the following Scripture:
Matthew 27:52-53:
52 and tombs opened. The bodies of many godly men and women who had died were raised from the dead. 53 They left the cemetery after Jesus’ resurrection, went into the holy city of Jerusalem, and appeared to many people.
Do you think the people saw them as spirits or flesh or ghosts?
I believe that they saw them as flesh because they were raised after Jesus' resurrection Who is able to raise up those who are dead in power & with all authority. Jesus being the Firstborn and then them(saints rose from graves) and then those of us later.
Also, God Who can do anything for all power is in His hands is able to raise one from sleep and command to go or say or do whatever and where ever HE says go or say for purposes that are HIS alone and us poor humans will just have to deal with that. Sometimes we always want to know why, how , when it is just not for us to know, period.
_____________________________
"cute and cuddly boys" skipper
"Doctrine of Christ everywhere teaches self-denial and mortification of worldliness and sin...never makes the death of Christ a cloak to cover sin, but speaks of it as an instrument that destroys it". John Flavel
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 4/8/2010 9:04:29 AM
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keithyhuntington
Posts: 1112
Joined: 7/7/2009
From: Tulsa, Okla.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: poetessfree
But I have a question regarding the following Scripture:
Matthew 27:52-53:
52 and tombs opened. The bodies of many godly men and women who had died were raised from the dead. 53 They left the cemetery after Jesus’ resurrection, went into the holy city of Jerusalem, and appeared to many people.
Do you think the people saw them as spirits or flesh or ghosts?
I believe that they saw them as flesh because they were raised after Jesus' resurrection Who is able to raise up those who are dead in power & with all authority. Jesus being the Firstborn and then them(saints rose from graves) and then those of us later.
i've been wanting to do a horror/zombie movie on this text. Passion Of The Christ meets Night Of The Living Dead...
i'm sure that's borderline blasphemous... but it sounds fun anyway :)
_____________________________
Crosswalk suggested for me to change this signature so none of the members would be offended.
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 4/8/2010 4:21:56 PM
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Gazingstock
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Memaw.
I just saw a signature line that read:
Ghosts were people too.
So that got me thinking, were they?
I have always believed ghosts (other than the Holy Ghost), were demonic in nature, and took on the form of a demised human just so we feel "comfortable" and more easily tricked (or convinced) into believing they mean us no harm.
So, were they people?
Are they demons?
We do have a multi-year thread going based on Christian eyewitness accounts and doctrines:
Ghosts & the Paranormal
_____________________________
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual [ones]. -1Cr 2:13
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 4/8/2010 10:43:47 PM
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wolfvanzandt
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The3rdDay, necromancy is most certainly a historic fact. Now, what's actually going on is debatable but there have been necromancers from the time of Homer (at least) to the 19th century Spiritualists to the present day.
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 4/13/2010 5:16:17 PM
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19ramman85
Posts: 720
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From: Sandusky, MI
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lady_Daffodil
quote:
Matthew 27:52-53:
52 and tombs opened. The bodies of many godly men and women who had died were raised from the dead. 53 They left the cemetery after Jesus’ resurrection, went into the holy city of Jerusalem, and appeared to many people.
Do you think the people saw them as spirits or flesh or ghosts?
I believe that they saw them as flesh because they were raised after Jesus' resurrection Who is able to raise up those who are dead in power & with all authority. Jesus being the Firstborn and then them(saints rose from graves) and then those of us later.
Hmmm, that just brought up another question in my mind. After these people rose out of their graves, where did they go? Did they go back to their graves to await the return of Christ, or did God take them up to Heaven?
That, we will never know - but it sure would make a great debate/topic, eh?
-charles
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http://faithcommunitynetwork.com/m_4970403/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#4970403
Thanx!
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 4/14/2010 1:20:21 AM
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Giuliano
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Great confusion exists within Christianity since so many equate souls and spirits.
The people Matthew tells us were resurrected at the time of the Crucifixion did not come out of their graves in physical bodies. Matthew is reporting something that was observed with spiritual sight. The histories of the time don't report any such event; and it they had come out physically, I would think it would have been news and made it into the history books. Josephus records many other amazing things but not anything like this. Thus, I conclude their souls came out, their souls had been "sleeping" and came out.
There are four parts to the human being in time and space: The heart, the mind, the soul and the physical body. The spirit, being in the image and likeness of God, is outside of time and space. The spirit is immortal, cannot die. There is no Scripture which mentions the death of the spirit. On the other hand, it is said many places in the Bible that souls can die. Most certainly "souls" can die. The "nephesh" or "soul" is the animal-like part of man -- and animals have similar "souls." Genesis says so. Yes, animals have souls; and Solomon says that in this way, man is not superior to the beasts.
It is the soul which can wander off after the death of the physical body that can become what we call a "ghost." Ideally it should move to Paradise as the thief on the cross did. The thief did not go to Heaven. Do not think that since Jesus met him in Paradise (the Garden) and did not "ascend" to the Father until after his Resurrection.
If the soul requires purification and is not in a state of rebellion, it goes to gehinnom to enter the flames that purify it. This is how the Jews use the word "gehinnom" and it's where the Catholics got their concept of purgatory.
If the soul is confused at the moment of death of the physical body, it can enter a state of unconsciousness. The OT calls this "sleeping." It is not a permanent state. When the Trump is sounded, it is enough to wake up the righteous souls which sleep; and so it was at the time of the Crucifixion when the souls of the righteous who slept came forth. This state of confusion is often brought about by violence used against the saint; and the loss of blood is a serious matter since the nephesh must withdraw from the body and the blood after the death of the physical body. When the blood is spilled, the separation of the nephesh or soul from the blood is made more difficult; and the soul can fall into the unconscious state. Thus the Bible speaks of the land being polluted by this blood and tells us that the life is in the blood.
A more unfortunate state is when the soul mostly separates but does not accept separation from the physical body. It does not go either to Paradise for further education or to Gehinnom for purification. Instead it rebels against the death of the physical body and refuses to accept reality. Thus I have never met up with any ghosts which were not obsessed some way with the "lusts of the flesh." They crave the material existence and are trying to cling to it; but they're not being realistic. Yes, I've seen ghosts and talked to them; and I must say that I think some people here are writing what they think may be so but lack any experience with ghosts.
The soul of man is meant to be a vehicle for Spirit -- an expression of delight for God -- that provides bliss and happiness. But it can also express the worse emotions when it rebels against the Spirit and is separated from Spirit. Ghosts are generally not too bright since they lack "minds" as living people have minds. Remember I said we have four parts -- and ghosts are only the nephesh part, lacking proper minds. If anyone has ever had a dream in which they behave strangely without being able to think right, that's the soul for you off on its own without the mind.
Ghosts and demons are not alike. Yes, I've met demons too; and anyone who thinks they are the same is only thinking something. I doubt they have met either. While there are different types of demons, they are generally more intelligent than ghosts. That is because demons are either of "air" or "fire" while ghosts are of "water." I mean by that:
Physical body=Earth
Soul=Water
Mind=Air
Heart, volitional body=Fire
Yes, most demons are entities of the "mental plane." Satan himself is restrained at present to the mental plane, thus called "prince of the air."
The best way to avoid becoming a ghost is to seek harmony among all four aspects of our being in time and space -- by loving God with all the heart, mind, soul and strength.
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 4/15/2010 2:56:40 AM
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wolfvanzandt
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hmmm...Guiliano, that is certainly the traditional (Medieval) understanding of ghosts, but I suspect that it's more supposition than fact. I think if you try to trace out the basis of those beliefs, you're going to run into a series of brick walls. Want to try?
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 4/15/2010 8:42:03 AM
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Lenowill
Posts: 30
Joined: 1/23/2010
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quote:
The people Matthew tells us were resurrected at the time of the Crucifixion did not come out of their graves in physical bodies. Matthew is reporting something that was observed with spiritual sight. The histories of the time don't report any such event; and it they had come out physically, I would think it would have been news and made it into the history books. Josephus records many other amazing things but not anything like this. Thus, I conclude their souls came out, their souls had been "sleeping" and came out.
Hmm ... what do you make of John 12:9-11 and the surrounding passages? It mentions that the chief priests were plotting to kill Jesus and Lazarus (who had been raised from the dead) along with him. The gospels seem to pretty firmly indicate a resurrection of a physical body.
I do believe mind/soul is a complex matter, but, like Wolf, I feel like it would be hard to substantiate a lot of what you posted. What leads you to conclude that ghosts work in the way you believe them to, as opposed to some similar-yet-different alternative (for instance, the possibility that a might be more similar to an emotional and mental "imprint" on the area in which it died or in the mind of the earth as a whole)?
This is a topic I find very interesting, however, for various reasons. I will attest to having encountered entities that could conceivably be called ghosts, before.
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 5/5/2010 12:46:00 AM
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cgl1023
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quote:
I have always believed ghosts (other than the Holy Ghost), were demonic in nature, and took on the form of a demised human just so we feel "comfortable" and more easily tricked (or convinced) into believing they mean us no harm.
So, were they people?
Are they demons?
The so-called ghosts are nothing more than demons. They are not fallen angels as the fallen angels have bodies; bodies far better than ours.
You may ask, 'where do demons come from?'. They are the disembodied souls of the pre-adamic race. This race of beings inhabited the earth before the race of Adam. They were a race that sided with Satan, rebelling against God and they were overthrown by God. In doing so He promised they would never be named.
Ghosts are Satan's invention. Satan's only mission is to recruit as many people as he can to his side using any lies and deceptions. He wants all people to join him in the lake of fire. Ghosts are just another contrivance Satan uses to deceive people.
The scriptural development for all this is too long to include. See instead the reference listed below, for the development.
http://www.bdhyman.com/, Books Tapes and CDs, #125--ANSWERS - VOL. VII
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 5/5/2010 1:48:35 AM
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ManimalX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
Demons and fallen angels are one in the same. Actually, they are described in the Greek NT using very different words. They are not the same.
Angels, fallen or not, have glorified heavenly bodies. Demons are described as not having bodies and longing to inhabit a body. (ref the Gadredene demoniac)
Hey Dave, can you discuss this a little bit more, please? (You explain it much better than I do).
_____________________________
"The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'" - Psalms 14:1
"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ" - 2 Cor 10:5
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