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Those intangibles that end relationships... - 7/25/2010 3:59:04 PM
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Binyamin
Posts: 94
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This is a long post, and it's somewhat thought-heavy. You have been warned. 
I sat down to talk with a friend a few days ago, and we were discussing relationships.
A topic that came up was relationships that ended, and observations about them. In both his experience and mine, we noticed a general trend where women seemed to end the majority of relationships, and quite often, the reason given was something difficult to understand or deal with for men.
(This is not to say men don't end relationships or that men don't have their own unresolved issues. We can open another thread for that. Also, to put relationships into context, I believe in Biblical relationships. Ie, marriages for life except for Biblically permissible reasons to end them.)
I would try to define these often-cited intangibles that women use to rationalize the ending of their relationships as "lack of feelings". Other versions could be "the chemistry isn't there, I see you as a brother more than a lover, we weren't meant to be, you don't excite me anymore, my heart doesn't do somersaults when I see you anymore, etc". Even when this isn't the official reason, it is implied to be the reason, when a woman finds this excitement elsewhere.
From a guy's perspective, most men don't know the first thing about these intangible feelings and how they work. Based on my experience, I don't think women understand them entirely either. All we can do is know when these feelings exist, when they dissipate, and a few basic idioms that are taught through the media and culture.
Common sense would dictate that before anyone gets into a relationship, both partners, but particularly men- need to get a handle on what these intangibles are, how they work, and what exactly his responsibilities are when it comes to them.
However, I would hazard that any man who asks a woman to define exactly what it is she wants, and how a man can achieve it would have no real answer. Yes, there is "be romantic, be considerate, be kind, be caring", but there is also "don't be smothering, hypersensitive and servile" when a man goes too far in this direction. To compound the issue, women seem to want the opposite as well. "Be a leader, be bold, be strong, be firm, etc". This "strong yet sensitive" paradox is easy to say, but somewhat more difficult to pull off logistically. When is a man meant to be strong, and when sensitive? How is he meant to know when? Every woman defines these intangibles in her own way, perceives behavior in her own way, and has her own, unique individual desires when it comes to these things.
So the question becomes a complex one:
If a man intends to do his part when it comes to his wife's emotional needs, is a man expected to know exactly what a woman thinks, feels, wants, prefers and perceives and cater to her needs accordingly? If so, at what point is the man expending so much effort to understand and please his wife that it becomes impractical and separates him from his own goals and directions, and that of his family as a whole?
On the flipside, is the woman expected to show the same devotion and dedication to understanding so completely her man's needs and pleasing her man in return, or are men supposed to sacrifice their intangible desires?
Looking at these intangibles themselves, could it be that women (and sometimes even men) place too much importance on feelings and emotions that are fleeting, dynamically changing and difficult to understand?
What is the right way to sort this problem out?
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RE: Those intangibles that end relationships... - 7/25/2010 10:06:16 PM
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deermousie
Posts: 2737
Joined: 9/26/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Binyamin
I would try to define these often-cited intangibles that women use to rationalize the ending of their relationships as "lack of feelings". Other versions could be "the chemistry isn't there, I see you as a brother more than a lover, we weren't meant to be, you don't excite me anymore, my heart doesn't do somersaults when I see you anymore, etc".
Binyamin, there could be several things going on with relationships, and not everyone is doing the same thing.
In your comment above, it also could be several things. Perhaps a woman grew up watching Walt Disney movies and thinks that if her life doesn't resemble Sleeping Beauty or some other fictional romance, she's being cheated. The problem, of course, is that Disney rarely reflects real life and the woman is looking for something no man can give her. She's chasing phantoms and she's blaming guys for not delivering.
Or maybe she just doesn't click with you and is trying to be nice but doesn't know how.
Or maybe she's a shallow little silly thing.
Any woman who says "you don't excite me anymore" ought to be in your rear-view mirror anyway - imagine the outrageous demands she'll make on a husband for 50 years to make her feel things!
There are some wonderful women out there, but they aren't playing these kind of games I don't think.
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From a guy's perspective, most men don't know the first thing about these intangible feelings and how they work. Based on my experience, I don't think women understand them entirely either. All we can do is know when these feelings exist, when they dissipate, and a few basic idioms that are taught through the media and culture.
Well, culture is secular and doesn't understand or even like God who made the world and is the only source of information on how it really runs (He doesn't do Disney, either), and the media is geared to mess with people's feelings so they can sell their products. Neither one are good sources to teach you.
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Common sense would dictate that before anyone gets into a relationship, both partners, but particularly men- need to get a handle on what these intangibles are, how they work, and what exactly his responsibilities are when it comes to them.
Everyone is different, and one of the fun things is exploring how people "work." Ask questions, observe, talk, talk and talk some more. Study each other. And read your Bible to see what the roles of married people are and how you can recognize and nurture a relationship that is moving that way. Courtship/dating will move on the same tracks.
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However, I would hazard that any man who asks a woman to define exactly what it is she wants, and how a man can achieve it would have no real answer.
He will if 1) she's honest and 2) she knows her own mind (thus assuming she is a person who has the maturity to think about her life). Some women don't know and some women won't tell you because they can mess with you and thus have power over you. I hope the number of women who do this is small, as it is manipulative and dishonest. A mature Christian woman should have her act together such that this would be unacceptable behavior for her to tolerate in herself.
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Yes, there is "be romantic, be considerate, be kind, be caring",
A man who is engaged would probably be romantic. It bothers me that a woman would expect a man she might be just dating to act like he has pledged his heart and life to her; again it is dishonest. And every person should be considerate and kind, and in a committed (read: engaged or married) relationship, caring.
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but there is also "don't be smothering, hypersensitive and servile" when a man goes too far in this direction.
See? "Act like you're engaged even though you aren't engaged (which is unhealthy), but don't act unhealthy." That's a crazy-maker.
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To compound the issue, women seem to want the opposite as well. "Be a leader, be bold, be strong, be firm, etc". This "strong yet sensitive" paradox is easy to say, but somewhat more difficult to pull off logistically.
People disagree with me a lot on this (and that's fine) but my take is that a man who is dating is not obligated to act like an engaged or married man. Dating and courting are a time to discover if there's a match. I think women who act like this aren't a match. Good thing you found out so you can move on; check out the women at your church (and if they are serious Christians, they're going to be looking for men who do things God's ways, too. Decide which camp you want to be in, but I say again that only God's ways work).
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When is a man meant to be strong, and when sensitive?
Strong when facing hurtful things, bad guys and immorality; tender when dealing with weakness that needs protection, like children or wives.
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How is he meant to know when? Every woman defines these intangibles in her own way, perceives behavior in her own way, and has her own, unique individual desires when it comes to these things.
Right. So see if what she believes lines up with the Bible (which implies you need to know what the Bible says, too) or is some crazy thing she or some mogul in Hollywood made up.
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So the question becomes a complex one:
If a man intends to do his part when it comes to his wife's emotional needs, is a man expected to know exactly what a woman thinks, feels, wants, prefers and perceives and cater to her needs accordingly?
Exactly? Not possible, I don't think. The Bible says for men to live with their wives in an understanding way, so you and your wife have to talk, talk, talk. Communicate, study your wife. Discern your girlfriend's morals and maturity to see if you should pursue anything further.
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If so, at what point is the man expending so much effort to understand and please his wife that it becomes impractical and separates him from his own goals and directions, and that of his family as a whole?
God says He created wives (the first one was Eve) to be a suitable helpmeet. God gives the man a job and the wife is there to help him do it. If a guy is tied up like a pretzel trying to please his wife, then he's lost sight of his "job" and his wife may have trapped him in it. Bad news. He needs to get himself right with God, figure out what God's will is for him (which will include loving his wife and raising his children in the reverential awe and discipleship of the Lord) and how his wife can help him, and then he teaches her to help him and tells her the games have to stop because manipulation and being dishonest is sin.
If a guy isn't interested in doing God's job and loving his wife and raising his children in God, then, hey, he can do whatever he wants and he'll wonder the rest of his life why it never worked.
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On the flipside, is the woman expected to show the same devotion and dedication to understanding so completely her man's needs and pleasing her man in return, or are men supposed to sacrifice their intangible desires?
God tells us what a woman's job is, and it's not politically correct. Her base is the home, and she takes care of her husband and children and runs her house. She can branch out into business (Prov. 31) but the home is central.
Paul said married people do try to please their mates but the singles can just please God - see why nonChristians and carnal Christians are so different?
quote:
Looking at these intangibles themselves, could it be that women (and sometimes even men) place too much importance on feelings and emotions that are fleeting, dynamically changing and difficult to understand?
To make feelings a #1 priority is idolatry. God is supposed to be first.
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What is the right way to sort this problem out?
Yep. It's between the covers of your Bible, and if you don't know it that well you can talk to your pastor, attend family conferences, read books and start reading your Bible like your life depends on it (because you'll stumble around like a blind man without it).
Good questions!
_____________________________
People died to give you the Bible in your language.
Read it. Eat it. Dwell in it. Rightly divide it. Live it.
Laugh, dance, praise your God, and go read some more. And God bless you.
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RE: Those intangibles that end relationships... - 7/25/2010 10:44:29 PM
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sharonjef2007
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I am a cut to the chase kind of gal...so I'm skipping to the last question....
quote:
What is the right way to sort this problem out?
From Ephesians 5:
22 Wives, be subject to your husbands as you are to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife just as Christ is the head of the church, the body of which he is the Savior. 24 Just as the church is subject to Christ, so also wives ought to be, in everything, to their husbands. 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 in order to make her holy by cleansing her with the washing of water by the word, 27 so as to present the church to himself in splendor, without a spot or wrinkle or anything of the kind—yes, so that she may be holy and without blemish. 28 In the same way, husbands should love their wives as they do their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hates his own body, but he nourishes and tenderly cares for it, just as Christ does for the church, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." 32 This is a great mystery, and I am applying it to Christ and the church. 33 Each of you, however, should love his wife as himself, and a wife should respect her husband.
My short answer? Communication. If my husband is not meeting my needs because he does not know what they are and I have not told him....that blame falls on me. Same as if I am not meeting his needs that I don't know are there and he does not tell me. Humans have intuition, but we are not mind readers.
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RE: Those intangibles that end relationships... - 7/26/2010 12:18:54 PM
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mj2008
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Oh the intangible. I am reading this and I can totally see how men can get confused. It is all about communication and choices.
Sometimes as women we don't clearly communicate our needs and desires. We assume that the other person should be a mind reader (good one sharonjef2007).
I can't really speak for all women, but I believe that the key to finding a woman that will not disappoint and reject you in such a tragic way is to really seek God's face in this area.
I agree with mousie that singles do behave as if they are engaged when they are just getting to know each other. Giving away their heart over and over again.
This is all due to a lack of spiritual maturity and searching for a partner who knows that their identity is in the Lord. Someone who won't fall apart by what you do or fail to do constantly.
Unfortunately, I do think that men play into these games often, by falling for the girl who will break your heart. I know so many awesome christian single girls who know who they are, who love the Lord, who are gorgeous, but are intimidating to the men in the church.
So as a man really think about a woman being a helpmate. a confident Christian woman who clearly communicates and loves the Lord more than she could love you will be much more helpful to you, than the sexy, mysterious girl who is trying to figure out who she is and constantly talks about these intangible feelings.
If you don't believe me ask my husband. What a breath of fresh air it was to find each other and not play games. We made a decision to love each other and marriage is not easy, but we love Jesus and He balances our relationship. We talk and talk and talk again all the time. And we pray and pray that we continue to communicate to each other and treat each other with love and mercy. Yes he is not a mind reader and neither am I. But I can clearly and confidently tell him in love what I need from him to help our relationship and he can do the same. Whether it is a love note once in a while, or me preparing his favorite meal, it is all done because we love each other and we have to continue to tend to the garden that is our marriage. It takes work, but it is soooo much fun.
_____________________________
I love Jesus!!!
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RE: Those intangibles that end relationships... - 7/26/2010 12:26:03 PM
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Elena1030
Posts: 3120
Joined: 6/21/2006
From: Music City, USA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deermousie
quote:
ORIGINAL: Binyamin
I would try to define these often-cited intangibles that women use to rationalize the ending of their relationships as "lack of feelings". Other versions could be "the chemistry isn't there, I see you as a brother more than a lover, we weren't meant to be, you don't excite me anymore, my heart doesn't do somersaults when I see you anymore, etc".
Or maybe she just doesn't click with you and is trying to be nice but doesn't know how.
Most often when I've tried to put into words what I'm feeling (or not feeling) when it comes to not clicking with a guy, I say something like that -- "I see you more as a brother, not as a boyfriend; I gave this a chance b/c I thought attraction would grow, but it just hasn't."
Sometimes things are just ineffable (aka, hard to put into words -- difficult to articulate, even to oneself). Ultimately, unless you did something that "broke" the relationship, then it's really not your fault that things ended. Dating is to find out if you are a match. And if the answer is no (for either of you... or both of you come to that conclusion), then the dating process with that person was still a success: because you got an answer to that question. And if the two of you aren't a match, it's foolish to try to twist yourself into a pretzel trying to become what would be a match for the woman in question.
Women aren't always playing games. (Although there are some who do.) Sometimes it takes a while for her to know her own thoughts and feelings and to sort out any jumbles inside.
Now... if it's a matter of your having done something that could have been repented of and then fixed (or never done again) and she didn't give you an opportunity to know what hurt her, to apologize and ask forgiveness for it, and to try to do better in the future, then that was unfair.... and you probably don't want to be with a woman like her anyway.
_____________________________
"I like to stride, not mince." -- Maggie
Prayer thread for singles who desire to marry someday
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RE: Those intangibles that end relationships... - 7/26/2010 9:15:58 PM
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Binyamin
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"Doesn't click" is an intangible.
And going by their posts, Elena and Deermousie indicate that it's important enough to be a dealbreaker in a relationship. I'm sure there are several others who feel the same way. And this is despite the fact that nobody knows what clicking really is.
The Bible doesn't say anything about clicking or chemistry being important in a relationship. In fact, if two people who clicked before marriage stop clicking after marriage, it isn't valid grounds for a Christian divorce.
In light of that, how important is clicking?
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RE: Those intangibles that end relationships... - 7/26/2010 9:49:46 PM
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sharonjef2007
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You have to enjoy spending time with your spouce or you will be miserable. You have to desire your spouce or things are not going to be "happy ever after." That is the point of dating or courting.
I have never heard anyone say they divorced because they didn't click. I have heard that they fell out of love. What they forget is love isn't a "feeling" so much as it is a choice. People who use that excuse should never have married in the first place.
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RE: Those intangibles that end relationships... - 7/27/2010 12:15:47 AM
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Binyamin
Posts: 94
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And yet, they do get married. And they divorce, even the Christian ones. 41% of first marriages end in divorce, with women initiating 66% of separations and divorces, what are the divorce rates within the church today?
There are those abusers, addicts and adulterers who compel their wives to divorce them and rightly so, but how many of them within the church divorce for emotional, intangible reasons- reasons that they don't quite understand, but neither do their men.
If women knew what they wanted, what they expected of their partners emotionally, and communicated it clearly, it would be perfect for both parties. But where do we draw the line. What do we expect when it comes to these intangibles?
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RE: Those intangibles that end relationships... - 7/27/2010 10:11:45 AM
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Elena1030
Posts: 3120
Joined: 6/21/2006
From: Music City, USA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Binyamin
"Doesn't click" is an intangible.
Intangible, yes. So is character. You cannot touch either one of them. 
Perhaps you mean ineffable? Or at least difficult to describe... That doesn't mean it isn't real.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Binyamin
And going by their posts, Elena and Deermousie indicate that it's important enough to be a dealbreaker in a relationship. I'm sure there are several others who feel the same way. And this is despite the fact that nobody knows what clicking really is.
The Bible doesn't say anything about clicking or chemistry being important in a relationship.
Well, the Bible does say something about romance being rather mysterious: "Three things are beyond me; four I can't understand: the way of an eagle in the sky, the way of a snake on a rock, the way of a ship at sea, and the way of a man with a young woman" (Proverbs 30:18-19, HCSB).
Plus, see the entire Book of Song of Songs -- seems to me that attraction and "clicking" are big deals in that book!
The Bible doesn't tell us where to put it on the list of priorities, but I imagine that one shouldn't marry a person that he/she doesn't ever want to have sex with. You're only supposed to marry one person... until death (and then there's a possibility of remarrying...but this thread isn't about that). You don't have to marry all the other people out there.
Also...
If there are two guys of equal character and "goodly husband qualities" and I am to choose between the two, I am going to choose the one w/ whom I click... and that "clicking," to me, entails much more than mere romantic/sexual attraction... has to do with how well we communicate, how our values and goals match, and how well we "team up" for the Kingdom. But yes, for the purpose of dating and evaluating each other for marriage, "clicking" does have the facet of sexual/romantic attraction.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Binyamin
In fact, if two people who clicked before marriage stop clicking after marriage, it isn't valid grounds for a Christian divorce.
In light of that, how important is clicking?
There are many things that are not valid grounds for divorce ... for Christians. But does that mean that the things you must tolerate if you are married... are things to overlook if you are single, dating, and considering the person for marriage?
Seems to me there's scriptural support for considering first what you want to choose -- counting the cost (see Luke 14:28,31).
Perhaps what is concerning to you is that a woman would date a man for quite a while and then suddenly break things off w/ him and say that it's b/c they don't click enough (or whatever other reason she gives... one that might sound like just an excuse... and may or may not be one). And that is disconcerting. You'd think that she would know before they had dated for so long that she didn't click with him enough... or whatever the deal is.
Anyway... does it really matter what her reason is... if she doesn't want to be with you anymore? If she's breaking off dating, she's allowed to do that. We're not talking about ending a marriage. Dating is not an obligation. She's not even required to give you the first date... let alone the 50th.
And don't you want the same grace to find a person you want to be with?
Maybe the desire/yen to "fix things" is playing a strong part here ---> so many people want to fix whatever was wrong in the relationship... and maybe there was some of that. But maybe the two people weren't a good fit. And in those cases, it's best to just move on.
_____________________________
"I like to stride, not mince." -- Maggie
Prayer thread for singles who desire to marry someday
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RE: Those intangibles that end relationships... - 7/27/2010 10:13:08 AM
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Elena1030
Posts: 3120
Joined: 6/21/2006
From: Music City, USA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Binyamin
And yet, they do get married. And they divorce, even the Christian ones. 41% of first marriages end in divorce, with women initiating 66% of separations and divorces, what are the divorce rates within the church today?
There are those abusers, addicts and adulterers who compel their wives to divorce them and rightly so, but how many of them within the church divorce for emotional, intangible reasons- reasons that they don't quite understand, but neither do their men.
If women knew what they wanted, what they expected of their partners emotionally, and communicated it clearly, it would be perfect for both parties. But where do we draw the line. What do we expect when it comes to these intangibles?
The problem is that you're expecting women to be like men.
And even men don't always know themselves as well as they think and proclaim that they do.
Human emotions and the inner lives of humans are not always that straightforward.
_____________________________
"I like to stride, not mince." -- Maggie
Prayer thread for singles who desire to marry someday
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RE: Those intangibles that end relationships... - 7/27/2010 1:07:05 PM
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sharonjef2007
Posts: 3348
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Binyamin
And yet, they do get married. And they divorce, even the Christian ones. 41% of first marriages end in divorce, with women initiating 66% of separations and divorces, what are the divorce rates within the church today?
There are those abusers, addicts and adulterers who compel their wives to divorce them and rightly so, but how many of them within the church divorce for emotional, intangible reasons- reasons that they don't quite understand, but neither do their men.
If women knew what they wanted, what they expected of their partners emotionally, and communicated it clearly, it would be perfect for both parties. But where do we draw the line. What do we expect when it comes to these intangibles?
Fact #1....just because a woman initiates a divorce does not mean that 100% of the time it is for an intangible.
Fact #2....you can only control you. Worrying about what other people do does not help you at all, it only stresses you out.
Fact #3....Marriage is a risk. Any relationship regardless of the time involves risk. Each person in the relationship has responsibilities and rights.
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RE: Those intangibles that end relationships... - 7/27/2010 4:42:50 PM
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Binyamin
Posts: 94
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Elena1030
quote:
ORIGINAL: Binyamin
"Doesn't click" is an intangible.
Intangible, yes. So is character. You cannot touch either one of them.
Perhaps you mean ineffable? Or at least difficult to describe... That doesn't mean it isn't real.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Binyamin
And going by their posts, Elena and Deermousie indicate that it's important enough to be a dealbreaker in a relationship. I'm sure there are several others who feel the same way. And this is despite the fact that nobody knows what clicking really is.
The Bible doesn't say anything about clicking or chemistry being important in a relationship.
Well, the Bible does say something about romance being rather mysterious: "Three things are beyond me; four I can't understand: the way of an eagle in the sky, the way of a snake on a rock, the way of a ship at sea, and the way of a man with a young woman" (Proverbs 30:18-19, HCSB).
Plus, see the entire Book of Song of Songs -- seems to me that attraction and "clicking" are big deals in that book!
The Bible doesn't tell us where to put it on the list of priorities, but I imagine that one shouldn't marry a person that he/she doesn't ever want to have sex with. You're only supposed to marry one person... until death (and then there's a possibility of remarrying...but this thread isn't about that). You don't have to marry all the other people out there.
Also...
If there are two guys of equal character and "goodly husband qualities" and I am to choose between the two, I am going to choose the one w/ whom I click... and that "clicking," to me, entails much more than mere romantic/sexual attraction... has to do with how well we communicate, how our values and goals match, and how well we "team up" for the Kingdom. But yes, for the purpose of dating and evaluating each other for marriage, "clicking" does have the facet of sexual/romantic attraction.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Binyamin
In fact, if two people who clicked before marriage stop clicking after marriage, it isn't valid grounds for a Christian divorce.
In light of that, how important is clicking?
There are many things that are not valid grounds for divorce ... for Christians. But does that mean that the things you must tolerate if you are married... are things to overlook if you are single, dating, and considering the person for marriage?
Seems to me there's scriptural support for considering first what you want to choose -- counting the cost (see Luke 14:28,31).
Perhaps what is concerning to you is that a woman would date a man for quite a while and then suddenly break things off w/ him and say that it's b/c they don't click enough (or whatever other reason she gives... one that might sound like just an excuse... and may or may not be one). And that is disconcerting. You'd think that she would know before they had dated for so long that she didn't click with him enough... or whatever the deal is.
Anyway... does it really matter what her reason is... if she doesn't want to be with you anymore? If she's breaking off dating, she's allowed to do that. We're not talking about ending a marriage. Dating is not an obligation. She's not even required to give you the first date... let alone the 50th.
And don't you want the same grace to find a person you want to be with?
Maybe the desire/yen to "fix things" is playing a strong part here ---> so many people want to fix whatever was wrong in the relationship... and maybe there was some of that. But maybe the two people weren't a good fit. And in those cases, it's best to just move on.
Interesting stuff. So what do you consider "good character" and "goodly husband qualities"?
quote:
ORIGINAL: sharonjef2007
quote:
ORIGINAL: Binyamin
And yet, they do get married. And they divorce, even the Christian ones. 41% of first marriages end in divorce, with women initiating 66% of separations and divorces, what are the divorce rates within the church today?
There are those abusers, addicts and adulterers who compel their wives to divorce them and rightly so, but how many of them within the church divorce for emotional, intangible reasons- reasons that they don't quite understand, but neither do their men.
If women knew what they wanted, what they expected of their partners emotionally, and communicated it clearly, it would be perfect for both parties. But where do we draw the line. What do we expect when it comes to these intangibles?
Fact #1....just because a woman initiates a divorce does not mean that 100% of the time it is for an intangible.
Fact #2....you can only control you. Worrying about what other people do does not help you at all, it only stresses you out.
Fact #3....Marriage is a risk. Any relationship regardless of the time involves risk. Each person in the relationship has responsibilities and rights.
I'd agree with your first fact. And your second.
But I don't know about the third. I don't believe the Bible portrays it as that. Society and culture might, but the Bible doesn't indicate that God allows for "risk" in marriages. He wants us to be good to each other, provide for each others' needs, love one another and stay married (barring adultery).
Ie, no risk. In fact, sociologically/culturally speaking, "riskier" relationships reduce productivity, success and fulfillment.
I can certainly see why people assume marriages are risky in our current climate, but that doesn't mean they should be. We shouldn't just take it as fact that marriages are risky, and people fall victim to inexplicable, uncontrollable and unpredictable emotions and feelings.
As much as Elena might detest it (since I'm supposedly trying to turn women into men), wouldn't marriages be better off if we tried to understand and make sense of these feelings and emotions?
Honestly, I think this all women should strive for this. Not only because it helps their mate make sense of them, but also because it helps a woman understand herself better and have a sense of control over her emotions rather than becoming a helpless victim to them, and pulling her marriage, spouse, children and all into her helplessness.
< Message edited by Binyamin -- 7/27/2010 4:56:26 PM >
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RE: Those intangibles that end relationships... - 7/27/2010 5:32:16 PM
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Elena1030
Posts: 3120
Joined: 6/21/2006
From: Music City, USA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Binyamin
I already know what to expect. I expect I'll see a million bullet points reflecting personal views rooted in past history, experiences, current mood and culture without any real consensus or concrete conclusion. Oh, and a whole cartload of intangibles. I- I mean ineffables. I ain't a first-timer, ya know.
 to you too.
You're likely to get lots of bullet points reflecting personal views rooted in past history, experiences, current mood, and culture on just about anything you ask women here in She Says.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Binyamin
I could start a new thread nevertheless, but I'm more interested in concretizing a set of intangibles. I imagine it to be an interesting exercise. I know I have the time. :)
Well, if I were a moderator, I'd say that this tangent (concretizing a set of intangibles) is kinda off topic for this particular thread... and warrants its own topic. But if you're willing to "play," I will. 
Character:
* Born again (believer, Christian, Christ-follower <--- whatever term you like)
* Honest
* Trustworthy
* Loyal
* Caring
* Joyful
* Compassionate
* Humble
* Teachable
* No besetting sins
* Good steward of resources
* Patient
Good husband material for Elena:
* Comparable intelligence level (not too vast a difference between us, either direction)
* Ability and potential for providing for a family
* Biblical worldview
* Of complementarian mindset when it comes to husband–wife roles in the home
* Looking joyfully, expectantly forward to becoming an involved father (by our having kids biologically, through adoption, or both; open to fostering)
* Has a "teacher's" heart
* Willingness to take on a wife who has a chronic autoimmune illness (I'm type 1 diabetic)
* Lifelong learner (preferably one who reads a lot... of any sort of reading material [though I don't really count comics!])
* Has the potential to be the resident "theologian" of our home (in other words, he is an ardent student of the Word)
* Probably good if he tends to be more on the easy-going side... since I tend to be intense and kinda wound-up/uptight in my flesh nature/natural personality
* A warm personality with a sense of humor I can like and admire (hate, hate, HATE practical jokes... and I'm not fond of jokes that make fun of others)
*** And of course, I want to find him cute and handsome... no matter what others think... and it would be faboo if I "melted" just looking at him. If I don't think he's cute in the face... sorry... it's tough to be attracted. ***
~ If he can write well, that makes him even more attractive to me. Extra bonus points for those who can spell correctly.  ~
There's a lot of wiggle room there for men who have all the above qualities but are unique in how God has put them together in him.... Who a man is a greater than the sum of his parts. (And so is a woman, of course.)
Not sure how concrete that is. And it's probably not an exhaustive list of the things I've discovered are important to me... but these are a good representation.
_____________________________
"I like to stride, not mince." -- Maggie
Prayer thread for singles who desire to marry someday
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RE: Those intangibles that end relationships... - 7/27/2010 9:44:29 PM
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sharonjef2007
Posts: 3348
Status: offline
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quote:
As much as Elena might detest it (since I'm supposedly trying to turn women into men), wouldn't marriages be better off if we tried to understand and make sense of these feelings and emotions?
Why do you assume that people don't? My husband and I do. We communicate well and we learn from our mistakes.
If 50% of marriages fail, that means 50% succeed. How about focusing on them instead?
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RE: Those intangibles that end relationships... - 7/28/2010 9:47:23 AM
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Elena1030
Posts: 3120
Joined: 6/21/2006
From: Music City, USA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Binyamin
But I don't know about the third. I don't believe the Bible portrays it as that. Society and culture might, but the Bible doesn't indicate that God allows for "risk" in marriages. He wants us to be good to each other, provide for each others' needs, love one another and stay married (barring adultery).
Ie, no risk. In fact, sociologically/culturally speaking, "riskier" relationships reduce productivity, success and fulfillment.
I doubt Sharon was talking about choosing "riskier" when she said that all relationships -- marriages included -- involve some level of risk. And it's because we cannot control other people. We have to take the risk to trust them to hold up their end of the covenant or agreement or whatever form that takes.
Choosing a wise risk -- now that might be the key. Or at least one of the keys.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Binyamin
I can certainly see why people assume marriages are risky in our current climate, but that doesn't mean they should be. We shouldn't just take it as fact that marriages are risky, and people fall victim to inexplicable, uncontrollable and unpredictable emotions and feelings.
As much as Elena might detest it
That's pretty strong wording... to assign to what I said. I don't "detest" it. I dislike it. And I think it's unwise...
quote:
ORIGINAL: Binyamin
(since I'm supposedly trying to turn women into men),
I don't think you're trying to "turn" women into men. I thought you might have been expecting the female brain to be wired more closely to that of the male brain. But maybe you're not... since you said this:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Binyamin
wouldn't marriages be better off if we tried to understand and make sense of these feelings and emotions?
Honestly, I think this all women should strive for this. Not only because it helps their mate make sense of them, but also because it helps a woman understand herself better and have a sense of control over her emotions rather than becoming a helpless victim to them, and pulling her marriage, spouse, children and all into her helplessness.
I do think it helps both the man and the woman -- whether they stay in the relationship (and I'm talking about relationships before marriage) or they don't -- to work on understanding themselves and each other and to work on improving their articulation and communication. So... yes, I agree with you there.
But... just b/c a woman may not totally understand her own emotions at times doesn't mean that she's helpless. Of course, there are women who choose to be wrecks and to create havoc b/c they indulge their sin natures. And other women suffer from mental illness. But all those factors are a bit much to try to explore in this thread (plus, we've already got a Mental Illness Debate thread over in Health and Fitness).
Two books I recommend in helping understand women's brains and how they are wired:
* For Men Only, by Shaunti Feldhahn - written from a Christian perspective
* The Female Brain, by Louann Brizendine, M.D. - written by a neuropsychiatrist
Now... I do agree with you --- it's far better for a woman to say, "Honey, I am just not feeling very connected to you right now, and that bothers me... especially since I can't put my finger on why right now. Can I just have a hug? And would it be ok to talk about it right now?" ... for example.... than to just let stuff build up w/out giving the man an opportunity to help make the situation better.
Sometimes he really cannot fix it -- it's not something he's done or something he's neglected to do. At other times, it is b/c she's hurt or whatever due to his attitude, his words, his actions or the lackthereof. So... yes, she should try to articulate what she's thinking and feeling.
And he should have patience with her.... sometimes the woman he's with is gonna be less prone to express herself... or maybe he's with a woman like me, whose fault is more akin to tending toward verbal diarrhea!!
Make sense? 
_____________________________
"I like to stride, not mince." -- Maggie
Prayer thread for singles who desire to marry someday
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RE: Those intangibles that end relationships... - 7/28/2010 3:47:49 PM
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mj2008
Posts: 108
Joined: 4/16/2010
Status: offline
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WOW Elena, I like your description of good character in a man and those are good things to look for in a mate.
Ire commend this book also:
For Men Only, by Shaunti Feldhahn - written from a Christian perspective
_____________________________
I love Jesus!!!
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