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Extremely disappointed - 7/25/2010 11:10:07 PM
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RichLP
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WARNING: THIS POST HAS SOME ISSUES WHICH WOULD HORRIFY AND DISGUST ANY REAL BELIEVER IN JESUS CHRIST. SADLY IT'S HAPPENING IN AN OTHERWISE GENUINE AND HEALTHY LOCAL CONGREGATION. I'M VERY SAD ABOUT THIS. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.
I had a very serious one-on-one conversation with a lovely brother from church. He and I met through Bible study this past fall/winter/spring, and while we are not the closest of friends, we get along very well and he's a very loving, forgiving, and gentle brother. He was very welcoming to me when I first joined this Bible study group. (in my church, Bible study groups are "off" for summer and new ones are formed every September, running through the following June.)
So, I'm talking with "Daniel." Daniel was telling me that he's considering moving to another fellowship. Yet, paradoxically, he praises the hard work of our senior pastor and of the most senior leadership. I ran off a few names of some of the older, more dedicated core leaders, and he agrees w/ me in that they are all very model leaders, hard workers of our church, and examples to be followed.
I was confused. Daniel has no issue w/ the pastor, nor with the top leaders. He readily admits there are many lovely people in our church and he has friends. Why, then I ask, does Daniel think of leaving?
Daniel is a member of the praise and worship team. Daniel is an amazing singer and plays string instruments very well. From M to F, my church has a praise and prayer time and Daniel is in charge one of these days, and I usually go when he's playing and singing because the beauty of his voice and music are surreal. I've often cried in praise and prayer while there - not simply because of his singing, but because the Holy Spirit moves when he leads praise and worship.
Daniel, he confessed to me, has felt very frustrated in our church's apparent weakness in enforcing discipline. The senior pastor, for all his advantages and strong points, doesn't like hearing negative things about members. But there's more.
"Mary," a 31-year-old single sister who often leads praise, has stumbled several people. Mary had conflicts with Daniel and with Daniel's girlfriend, whom I'll name "Joan," and this required the intervention of junior pastors.
As I was speaking to Daniel, Joan joined us, and Joan told me in detail of a situation where Mary lied to Joan. Joan produced emails to prove that Joan had not been in the wrong. "Jimmy," the junior pastor in charge of worship took Mary's side (in part because Jimmy likes her) despite the fact that the emails Joan had clealry showed Mary had been dishonest and unethical. So Joan "escalated" this to the second-in-command pastor, "Justin."
Pastor Justin sat everybody down - Pastor Jimmy, Mary, and Joan. After evaluating everybody's "sides" of the story and the said emails, Pastor Justin said openly, "Mary, you were wrong here." And then, Joan said, "Mary, what bothers me is that not once through this entire story did you apologize." Pastor Justin, finally enforcing some discipline, stated, "That's true Mary. You owe Joan an apology." So Mary apologized.
So, at last, peace and fellowship were re-established, and we now had reconciliation. Right?
Wrong!
Mary mouthed off to others in the praise team that she was upset that Pastors Jimmy and Justin didn't take her side, ostensibly because Mary as a leader of this praise team was "supposed" to have privileges and clergypersons were supposed to take her side simply because of her leadership position. I was flabbergasted when Joan and Daniel told me this. Mind you, I know Joan and Daniel from this past Bible study season - they would not lie nor invent this and they are not the types of people who seek conflict with others. But neither will they take false accusations lying down, as cowards would. This is the behavior of a woman who is leading praise at least twice a month on Sunday worship service in front of the entire congregation, praising, singing, playing instruments, lifting her hands up to heaven?
Now, you may say that it is not uncommon for a Christian to struggle with pridefulness. And it’s true. But if Mary had sincerely repented, despite such comments, all would be well, because even if this were her real attitude, she could change over time. But guess what she then said?
Mary also mouthed off that she only apologized because she “had” to as Pastor Justin “forced” her to, and she also openly said to others within church that she didn’t mean it. Mary foolishly thought this would not reach Joan – but it did.
And yes, you can accuse Daniel of gossiping – but wouldn’t you be upset if it was your girlfriend who was treated this way by a fellow member of the praise team and despite church discipline, the “perpetrator” stated this after the fact?
But the most troublesome thing I learned, which upset me and hurt me as a fellow believer (in part, I admit, because I once upon a time had a crush on Mary, even though nothing ever happened) is that Mary has for quite some time until recently bragged about how her non-Christian boss from work showered her with gifts and presents, dinners, and even invited her to his vacation homes? And that this man, once again, is not only not a believer but he is also MARRIED, and that his wife has met Mary and she does not like her?
Mary is probably not very smart because people will inevitably conclude that something inappropriate is happening, and yet she speaks like this in church, about her non-Christian manager who gives her these favors?
This has stumbled and offended several; Daniel actually confronted two sisters from our church, who are close friends of Mary’s. Daniel asked them why they, as Mary's close friends, do not step in to point out the sinfulness of this lifestyle, and why they don't ask her if not outright tell her to repent of her ways and to stop this. One of these women is also a friend of Joan. Daniel and Joan directly questioned these sisters, about whether something unethical is going on. These sisters did not deny anything; they simply said “no comment.”
IS THIS APPROPRIATE BEHAVIOR IN THE BODY OF CHRIST????
These women, and Mary apparently, reason that because this non-Christian man lives in an open marriage, that it’s “OK” that Mary reaps these benefits and gets away with it. These women did not deny that Mary has engaged in something inappropriate with this man, whom she even brought to church once.
Where is Christian morality? OK, so Mary may have gotten herself in a sticky situation, but shouldn’t her conscience kick in and shouldn’t she draw boundaries and not let things get worse?
And why are Mary’s two close friends who are ostensibly believers in Christ tolerating this behavior and not pulling her aside and rebuking her? If my close good Christian friend were living in sin and I found out, I would gently but directly and firmly, one-on-one, confront him about his sin and tell him he had to stop! Daniel and Joan believe in this philosophy, as the Bible teaches us to confront an erring brother/sister, and to take two witnesses, and then to take him before the entire fellowship.
In fact, this apathy and looking the other way is a major reason Daniel is sick of our church and he wants to leave! No one says anything! No one confronts others when they sin or are mired in a pattern of sinfulness! And this starts with the senior pastor, who despite being a genuine man of God and a very diligent shepherd, one whose work I thank God for, doesn’t want to hear “negative” things about people!
And yet this woman Mary leads worship despite stumbling her fellow praise team members, and despite having used others to learn musical skills to lead praise? (She dated one of the best guitar players in our church, had him teach her how to play the guitar; and, when this poor man bought her an expensive necklace for Christmas, she had the nerve to get mad and to complain because he didn’t get her a guitar!.... and then she was suddenly sporting a very expensive guitar, which she got as a gift from… yep her boss!).
I thanked Daniel for warning me about these horrible stories which are happening behind the apparently lovely façade of my church. Don’t get me wrong – there are MANY diligent, sincere, pure, and CLEAN people in my church who love Jesus and who labor for Him. And I thought Mary was one of them. As I said, I used to have a crush on her, and always saw her as a super-dynamic, loving leader who praises her heart out.
I can’t believe my church has looked the other way, and I can’t believe her stumbling behavior has been so tolerated.
I am so disappointed.
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RE: Extremely disappointed - 7/26/2010 12:22:02 AM
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my quivers full
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Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.
1 Peter 4:8
What you are hearing sounds like second hand information and now you are carrying another persons offense. If this "Mary" has indeed done these things, the "christian" thing for you to do is to be praying for her, that the Lord would convict her of her sins so that her repentance would be genuine. This has already been to the pastors and if there is a lack of true repentance then your friend ought to return to the pastors so they may follow up.
You will be disappointed no matter what church you may go to as you will find that there as some who profess faith but don't appear to live it, yet again can you judge what is in a persons heart? I'm not saying this Mary is without wrong doing but I can't see that spreading this second hand story around helps the situation or demonstrates love. If you love this church and it's people, pray for them. Mary can be led by God to repentance.
I heard recently that if we prayed as we thought we should, could you imagine that the early church probably would have prayed that God would strike dead Saul for approving the killing of believers and imprisoning other believers. Instead God brought life to Saul and made him Paul and blessed us with many New Testament writings.
Pray for this Mary instead of spreading her sins around and let God do His road of Damascus thing for her.
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No trees were hurt in the making of this post, but a few electrons were terribly inconvenienced :)
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RE: Extremely disappointed - 7/26/2010 8:17:56 AM
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timf
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A complicating factor here is that if you put Christians in an organizational institution similar to high school, you should not be surprised to see high school type behavior.
Christians all too often fall short in relational congregations as we can see in the New Testament. How much more difficult is it for Christians to mature and become Christ-like in organizational systems that are designed to process members through programs, events, and classes like so much sausage through a factory.
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RE: Extremely disappointed - 7/26/2010 9:12:45 AM
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drmark
Posts: 5778
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quote:
What you are hearing sounds like second hand information and now you are carrying another persons offense. Amen! This whole OP borders on gossip, IMHO... 
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Extremely disappointed - 7/26/2010 9:36:36 AM
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EclecticJoy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: my quivers full
Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.1 Peter 4:8 Amen.
quote:
ORIGINAL: my quivers full
What you are hearing sounds like second hand information and now you are carrying another persons offense. If this "Mary" has indeed done these things, the "christian" thing for you to do is to be praying for her, that the Lord would convict her of her sins so that her repentance would be genuine. This has already been to the pastors and if there is a lack of true repentance then your friend ought to return to the pastors so they may follow up. Amen.
quote:
ORIGINAL: my quivers full
You will be disappointed no matter what church you may go to as you will find that there as some who profess faith but don't appear to live it, yet again can you judge what is in a persons heart? I'm not saying this Mary is without wrong doing but I can't see that spreading this second hand story around helps the situation or demonstrates love. If you love this church and it's people, pray for them. Mary can be led by God to repentance. Amen.
quote:
ORIGINAL: my quivers full
Pray for this Mary instead of spreading her sins around and let God do His road of Damascus thing for her.
Amen.
*~*~*~*~*
Rich, no church is going to be perfect because no human being is perfect.
Have you heard Mary's side of the issue? If not, you may not have complete information.
Regardless as to whether you do or do not have complete information, I truly don't see how posting other people's sins - whether real or not - is going to encourage or edify anyone. Nor, do I see how doing so is going to resolve any of the conflict that seems to be going on.
I would encourage you to pray. Pray for Our Lord's Ciovering over the entire situation. Pray for soft hearts for all people involved so that there is a possibility of reconcilliation. Pray for Our Lord's Wisdom and Guidance as to what, if anything you should do. If you are led to do something, then do it. If you aren't led to do something, then don't do anything . . . except continue to pray if Our Lord leads you to do so.
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RE: Extremely disappointed - 7/26/2010 10:29:27 AM
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VanDuzer
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I agree, "Mary" may have another side to the story, but look inward as well. It's possible that your personal feelings for Mary might cloud the reality of the situation - or amplify things. Maybe not, just saying that it's possible.
But yes, it does sound like inappropriate behavior on the part of Mary. It usually only takes one person to create an overall "unpleasantness" in any organization or situation. If Mary is in fact manipulative and used to getting her way, if not confronted the behavior will continue. In all likelihood, she's engaged in this behavior her whole life and is probably used to attention (and being center stage). However, in my opinion, it's the pastors (as the leaders) that need to confront Mary - not Daniel and Joan. If a particular ministry is corrosive, it reflects on the whole Church. The pastors have a decision: confront and discipline this person (if necessary), or lose devoted members (you, Daniel, Joan, and more). Situations like this can undermine an entire Church if not addressed by the leadership.
If you want to handle someone like Mary, deprive her of the selfish attention that she craves. If she can't get her pride, selfishness, and manipulative behavior in check, let it be her that leaves the Church.
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RE: Extremely disappointed - 7/26/2010 10:29:45 AM
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solarflare
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What bothers me the most is that you listened to all this garbage.
Mary is trouble with a big T but everyone else is sinning too.
Does the Bible say talk about those who offend you and spread it all around?
There really is no remedy here but prayer.
As James says, the tongue can set the whole world on fire......
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RE: Extremely disappointed - 7/26/2010 10:31:25 AM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 11860
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From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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I disagree with the others that this is gossip. It's genuine concern about a situation in his fellowship, and he has changed all the names. It's as much "gossip" as some of the other situations in the Relationship and other folders are.
I do agree with the others that you'll meet with bad behavior in almost any Christian fellowship.
It's a shame that Christians don't act like Christians. Your friends, however, aren't totally blameless, either. Them telling you all this is wrong as well. What they should have done is follow up with the pastor(s). If Mary still hasn't repented, then they should take it before the whole church, as per Matthew 18.
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RE: Extremely disappointed - 7/26/2010 10:33:40 AM
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EclecticJoy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
It's a shame that Christians don't act like Christians. Your friends, however, aren't totally blameless, either. Them telling you all this is wrong as well. What they should have done is follow up with the pastor(s). If Mary still hasn't repented, then they should take it before the whole church, as per Matthew 18.
On this, you and I do agree..
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RE: Extremely disappointed - 7/26/2010 10:44:31 AM
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jn1010lf
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Hello RichLP
Your accounts of petty strife do not surprise me at all. But I do fault the leadership for not coming down on such silly stuff. They need to do some teaching on one's upward call to Christ.
Another thing the leadership could do would be to teach on the work of the Holy Spirit, and foster a free move of the Holy Spirit. He does have a purging effect.
If petty strifers persist in their silly stuff, leadership does have the obligation to deal with them privately. If they continue in spreading petty dissension, the leadership has the responsibility to run them off. As a Pastor once said, the sheep I fee, the goats I run off.
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RE: Extremely disappointed - 7/26/2010 10:51:11 AM
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Abbreviated
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Jesus will separate the wheat from the tares.
Not every church member is a Christian.
It is best to follow Mt. 18 in these type situations.
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RE: Extremely disappointed - 7/26/2010 10:57:22 AM
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RichLP
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My Quivers Full, Timf, Drmark, EclecticJoy, VanDuzer, Solarflare, and Ta_Mosquito: my sincere thanks. As some of you may have noticed, I’ve not visited Crosswalk very often in recent months, so your feedback is greatly appreciated.
I’m not going to reply to each of you individually, but I’ll number my responses as I will attempt to address all the points you ladies and gentlemen raised.
1. Is this secondhand information? Does Mary have a side to her story?
While I fully agree that there are two sides to every story, the fact that the issue between Joan and Mary was corroborated by printed emails which Joan brought as proof to the “disciplinary meeting” presided by Pastor Justin gives me enough reason to believe that Joan did not fabricate this. Additionally, one of the two women who are close to Mary and aware of her lifestyle is a friend of Joan’s too, and these women have not denied it when Joan and Daniel confronted them about their passivity and apathy towards the openly sinful lifestyle Mary has been living. It’d be one thing if Joan and Daniel didn’t know these women well; but, Joan is good friends with one of them. That alone makes Joan’s narrative reliable in my view.
2. I should pray for her
Agreed.
3. Every church has people who will disappoint us
Agreed. It’s happened to me at this fellowship already, but I thank God that the positive outweigh and outnumber the negatives by far.
4. Not spreading Mary’s sins
I’m not telling anybody else in my church. None of you know me in person or the real name of my church or these people’s real names.
5. High schoolish behavior
All too true. Daniel himself said to me that he’s tired of adolescent behavior amongst early 30s adults who should know better. He and I are the same age and we’re amongst the oldest singles, as we’re both nearing 40. This type of teenage politics and skirmishes are rather irritating to say the least.
6. My feelings for Mary
I had a crush on her last year; I thought of asking her out, but it never happened. Mary and I do not talk and we are not friends – we are simply members of the same church. There are no feelings for Mary on my part.
7. Mary being manipulative
Joan and Daniel highlighted this to me. She is very good at this, and an example of this is how she manipulated Pastor Jimmy to take her side before the issue with Joan was escalated to Pastor Justin. Pastor Jimmy is not even an ordained pastor; he’s only 26, and it is known he has feelings for Mary. In fact, Joan confronted him about this at first before Pastor Justin was brought in to enforce discipline. Pastor Jimmy was caught unprepared by Joan saying this and became totally flustered.
8. Corrosive ministry
Daniel said that several folks in the praise ministry have been wounded due to Mary’s antics. In fact, here’s something that a brother from my Bible study, who is also in the worship group, who is NOT close to Joan and Daniel, and with whom I had dinner less than 2 weeks ago, told me.
“Gary” and “Paul” are two brothers from my Bible study. Paul and I have become rather good friends. Gary is more of a church acquaintance. So, we’re eating and speaking about sisters – we’re all looking to marry. We all agreed, when Mary’s name came up, that Mary is attractive – but Gary said Mary needs to change. To cite an example, there was a situation a few weeks ago (I was not at this particular worship service) when there was some miscommunication between Mary, who was leading praise, and one of the backup instrumentalists. Mary was annoyed, turned around, and said with a sarcastic tone, “Andrew, are you gonna play this song again or are we skipping to the next one?”
This happened in the middle of Sunday worship. A very awkward and uncomfortable silence followed. Mary later apologized to Andrew, but this story, which Gary relayed to me and which Paul corroborated as both had been present (Gary was in fact with the band at that moment), came to mind yesterday as Daniel spoke.
In fact, this apparent pattern of Mary wounding others is a major reason Daniel and Joan will soon step down from their own duties in the praise band.
9. The failure of pastors to enforce discipline
Daniel correctly pointed to me that this attitude comes from the top and it has percolated the entire fellowship. I’ve been at this church for over 1 year and despite its many positives I have not seen or been aware of any incident where a sinning individual was rebuked (of course, one-on-one and in privacy) for the purposes of recovery and correction. Daniel said people just don’t want to rock the boat. And this attitude starts w/ the senior pastor, who doesn’t want to hear negative things about people. To me, it may be because people want the appearance of things being in order rather than causing some minor tension but which may ultimately bring about cleansing and refinement.
10. Daniel and Joan not being blameless
I see the reasoning behind this claim, but let me ask you folks. Is it really sinful or gossip when people who have been wounded or stumbled by the repeated sins of another brother or sister who has stubbornly remained in a pattern of sin, to the extent she has admitted in public that the apology she had earlier given had not been sincere, to talk about these issues?
I myself was very wounded by a younger sister who snapped at me rudely at church on a weeknight 1 year ago. I had done nothing to her and she spoke very meanly and rudely to me – and this when I was there for prayer! I was so livid I could not bring myself to pray, and over 10 minutes I stewed in anger at the pews. In fact, I approached a married brother who was helping with that night’s prayer meeting, and asked him in privacy to pray for me because I was consumed by hatred and rage. Yes, I should have confronted her – but I decided, after prayer, to let it go and simply to keep away from this sister. This sister is known for having a sharp tongue and a bad temper, and I simply keep my peace by not associating with her.
Was it wrong of me to tell the married brother I had been treated rudely?
11. Matthew 18
I brought this up to Daniel – as to why this doesn’t happen in our church. He simply said people are unaccustomed to and uncomfortable with “confrontations” and rebuking. It turned out that he, like me, had in younger years been shaped spiritually by the Southern Baptist church – and that’s where I learned that a very loving, gentle, but firm and respectful approach to discipline is sometimes needed. We just don’t have it at my church – I speculate it is only applied when the sins are just too open and big to ignore (although Mary’s open bragging about her boss’ gifts to her, his invitations to her to his summer homes – in fact, Mary once said in a previous Bible study, “I think my boss likes me,” which Daniel directly witnessed – is big enough to warrant discipline).
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RE: Extremely disappointed - 7/26/2010 10:58:57 AM
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VanDuzer
Posts: 45
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quote:
As a Pastor once said, the sheep I fee, the goats I run off.
I like that quote.
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RE: Extremely disappointed - 7/26/2010 11:00:50 AM
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RichLP
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Thanks JN1010lf. I like your last sentence.
quote:
ORIGINAL: jn1010lf
Hello RichLP
Your accounts of petty strife do not surprise me at all. But I do fault the leadership for not coming down on such silly stuff. They need to do some teaching on one's upward call to Christ.
Another thing the leadership could do would be to teach on the work of the Holy Spirit, and foster a free move of the Holy Spirit. He does have a purging effect.
If petty strifers persist in their silly stuff, leadership does have the obligation to deal with them privately. If they continue in spreading petty dissension, the leadership has the responsibility to run them off. As a Pastor once said, the sheep I fee, the goats I run off.
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RE: Extremely disappointed - 7/26/2010 11:07:37 AM
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ta_mosquito
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From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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It's uncomfortable, but I don't see why Joan and Daniel don't take this to the congregation, if the pastor won't. Start out by reading Matthew 18, then a simple outline of how they had confronted Mary in private, then with witnesses, and now they're doing it before the congregation, in obedience to Scripture. "Mary, you have lied to Joan and have not repented of it. You affected repentance, but then said you were forced into it. Here are emails proving your lies. We're coming before the congregation with this so that, as Scripture says, you may be reconciled to your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ." Something like that.
The things about the non-Christian boss, etc. are not things in which she is sinning against Daniel and Joan directly, so they're off the table. They should only confront her publicly about the sin done against JOAN.
Keep it Scriptural. This is not revenge or a vendetta, but a way to reconcile as per Scripture.
_____________________________
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RE: Extremely disappointed - 7/26/2010 11:10:27 AM
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RichLP
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
It's uncomfortable, but I don't see why Joan and Daniel don't take this to the congregation, if the pastor won't. Start out by reading Matthew 18, then a simple outline of how they had confronted Mary in private, then with witnesses, and now they're doing it before the congregation, in obedience to Scripture. "Mary, you have lied to Joan and have not repented of it. You affected repentance, but then said you were forced into it. Here are emails proving your lies. We're coming before the congregation with this so that, as Scripture says, you may be reconciled to your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ." Something like that.
The things about the non-Christian boss, etc. are not things in which she is sinning against Daniel and Joan directly, so they're off the table. They should only confront her publicly about the sin done against JOAN.
Keep it Scriptural. This is not revenge or a vendetta, but a way to reconcile as per Scripture.
Duly noted. I agree.
However, Ta_Mosquito. In your own church, if a man or woman were guilty of the illicit "friendship" with a non-Christian, married person the way Mary has been, how would your congregation deal with this person's sins once they became known? As I've written, Mary herself has bragged about it.
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RE: Extremely disappointed - 7/26/2010 11:31:03 AM
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Elena1030
Posts: 3185
Joined: 6/21/2006
From: Music City, USA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
However, Ta_Mosquito. In your own church, if a man or woman were guilty of the illicit "friendship" with a non-Christian, married person the way Mary has been, how would your congregation deal with this person's sins once they became known? As I've written, Mary herself has bragged about it.
Has Mary actually done anything wrong with her boss? Yes, it's unwise to accept the gifts, but I don't know that it's sin, per se. There may not be any actual adultery going on. But whatever ---> Mary doesn't seem to be acting in a way befitting someone who helps lead worship, so it would make sense that she be disciplined by church leadership.
I too would be disappointed in the church leadership for not putting the kibosh on her behavior.
_____________________________
"I like to stride, not mince." -- Maggie
Prayer thread for singles who desire to marry someday
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RE: Extremely disappointed - 7/26/2010 11:33:22 AM
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laura...
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quote:
Mary mouthed off to others in the praise team that she was upset that Pastors Jimmy and Justin didn't take her side, ostensibly because Mary as a leader of this praise team was "supposed" to have privileges and clergypersons were supposed to take her side simply because of her leadership position.
quote:
Mary also mouthed off that she only apologized because she “had” to as Pastor Justin “forced” her to, and she also openly said to others within church that she didn’t mean it. Mary foolishly thought this would not reach Joan – but it did.
At this point, Joan should have gone back to Pastor Justin. Pastor Justin, being a Junior Pastor, should have then taken the matter to a Pastor who is over him.
_____________________________
Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith... ...so that you will not grow weary and lose heart. Hebrew 12:3-4
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RE: Extremely disappointed - 7/26/2010 11:48:02 AM
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deermousie
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Whereever you have people you have politics! Doesn't life make us all long for heaven? 
Rich, you have not gossiped to us because none of us know your church or the people. Gossip is talking about something where you're not part of the problem or part of the solution, and you are looking for solutions and wisdom in a way that maligns no one.
Joan sinned: she gossipped. The next time she tries to tell you how someone else sinned you can say, "I'm sorry; I shouldn't be hearing this gossip. Please change the subject." Repeat as needed as gossipers dry up when no one will listen to them.
She produced emails????? Good grief! We are to cover each other's sin, not produce written proof of it. She's way out of line, and your church leadership should have had a talk with her about her sin. Treat any further "proof" of someone else's sin like the poisonous viper it is - don't touch it, don't accept it, refuse to talk about it, tell her to tell the person directly or go to the pastor.
Another way to handle gossip is to say (and this is not for the faint of heart), "So and so did that, huh? Let's go talk to them about it right now."
Mary lied to the leadership and everyone else, and is not repentent. Two sins.
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Mary mouthed off to others in the praise team that she was upset that Pastors Jimmy and Justin didn't take her side, ostensibly because Mary as a leader of this praise team was "supposed" to have privileges and clergypersons were supposed to take her side simply because of her leadership position.
She has no clue about what God tells us about sin. We live before God in humility because we are sinners who are forgiven and now trying to live righteously (I know I'm preaching to the choir, but Mary doesn't get it. She is in great error). There is no free pass to sin. She is lifting dirty hands to heaven; God says He doesn't accept the sacrifice. Prov. 15:8 And she greatly disrespected the pastor that is ordained - God has put real authority on him. She is way out of line.
And her relationship with her boss has the appearance of evil, even if she in naive and innocent and not sinning with him. She has no business on the worship team, and we know from 1 Cor. 5 that unrebuked sin in a church contaminates the rest of the church.
I hope Daniel is as disgusted with Joan's behavior as he is with the church.
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7. Mary being manipulative
Joan and Daniel highlighted this to me. She is very good at this, and an example of this is how she manipulated Pastor Jimmy to take her side before the issue with Joan was escalated to Pastor Justin. Pastor Jimmy is not even an ordained pastor; he’s only 26, and it is known he has feelings for Mary. In fact, Joan confronted him about this at first before Pastor Justin was brought in to enforce discipline. Pastor Jimmy was caught unprepared by Joan saying this and became totally flustered.
8. Corrosive ministry
Daniel said that several folks in the praise ministry have been wounded due to Mary’s antics. In fact, here’s something that a brother from my Bible study, who is also in the worship group, who is NOT close to Joan and Daniel, and with whom I had dinner less than 2 weeks ago, told me.
So Daniel is gossiping, too. So are Gary and Paul.
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Is it really sinful or gossip when people who have been wounded or stumbled by the repeated sins of another brother or sister who has stubbornly remained in a pattern of sin, to the extent she has admitted in public that the apology she had earlier given had not been sincere, to talk about these issues?
I think so.
God gives us Matt. 18 to deal with garbage like this, and it's not happening and doesn't look like it can. Your church has no way to clean itself.
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Yes, I should have confronted her – but I decided, after prayer, to let it go and simply to keep away from this sister. This sister is known for having a sharp tongue and a bad temper, and I simply keep my peace by not associating with her.
I think you handled that right - scoffer is another way of saying fool. Remember that you are Christ's representative (like an ambassador) and whatever a person does to you they are doing to Christ. Proverbs 9:8 says:
Do not correct a scoffer, lest he hate you; Rebuke a wise man, and he will love you.
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Was it wrong of me to tell the married brother I had been treated rudely?
I think so. We are to cover one another's sins. Tell Jesus what she did, and let Him deal with your hurt. You're the ambassador, after all, so just tell your King.
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11. Matthew 18
I brought this up to Daniel – as to why this doesn’t happen in our church. He simply said people are unaccustomed to and uncomfortable with “confrontations” and rebuking.
It's God's way of cleaning the Church and one of the ways of keeping her pure. We are told to do it. Some people want to be "nice", but it leaves the Church stewing in sin.
It wouldn't be a bad idea for you to stand up in church and publically confess and repent your sin of gossip. Then let the reaction to that point to whether you should leave for a more Bible-teaching fellowship or not.
Revivals seem to always start with public confession of sin - maybe God will use you to start one. If others start confessing their sin, it would be a great day!
God bless you, Rich.
_____________________________
People died to give you the Bible in your language.
Read it. Eat it. Dwell in it. Rightly divide it. Live it.
Laugh, dance, praise your God, and go read some more. And God bless you.
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RE: Extremely disappointed - 7/28/2010 8:27:42 AM
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EclecticJoy
Posts: 9379
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Here . . . and that's exactly where I want to be!
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
I disagree with the others that this is gossip. It's genuine concern about a situation in his fellowship, and he has changed all the names. It's as much "gossip" as some of the other situations in the Relationship and other folders are. Exactly. I consider many of those such threads to be gossip as well.
Gossip doesn't have to be retelling a situation with a person's true name.
Attributing harsh adjectives to one person of a story while attributing flattering adjectives to another person is not only gossip toward the person painted in unflattering light, but it also belies the underlining personal feelings of the person posting such adjectives. The difference between gossip and simply recounting the facts is that recounting the facts is devoid as much as possible of personal feelings. Additionally, gossip is usually quite a bit more detailed than simple factual retelling.
The above is why I personally said that the OP seemed to be gossip.
*~*~*~*~*
After getting caught up in this thread from the last time I posted, I still maintain that the best thing for you to do, Rich, is to pray for all involved; pray for Our Lord's Wisdom and Guidance for everyone.
Be blessed.
_____________________________
>>> Profile Stalking? <<<
>>> Facebook Etiquette <<<
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RE: Extremely disappointed - 7/28/2010 8:30:28 AM
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drmark
Posts: 5778
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: online
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The above is why I personally said that the OP seemed to be gossip. Amen!
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It wouldn't be a bad idea for you to stand up in church and publically confess and repent your sin of gossip. Double Amen!!
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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