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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 1/25/2010 1:14:26 PM
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RoderickSpode
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I believe that the scriptures are clear that if God doesn't keep us, everyone of us would deny Him. Not one of us here is any match for Satan left on our own devices. What happened with Peter correlates with what happened to Job. Satan made a request concerning Peter, and God allowed for the request up to a point.
The reason why each one of us stand today in our faith, is due to the keeping power of Jesus Christ. When persecution comes, those who are His, will be empowered by the Holy Spirit. Without that, forget it. If God wants any of us to see our real weakness and dependency on Him, all He would have to do is give a level of permission to Satan, and before our alarm goes off in the morning, we would deny Jesus 1...2...3.....times, before He restores us back. Or, am I wrong? Is there anyone here who can outwit Satan? If Peter couldn't do it, what makes us think any of us can?
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 1/25/2010 2:47:09 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RoderickSpode
I believe that the scriptures are clear that if God doesn't keep us, everyone of us would deny Him. Not one of us here is any match for Satan left on our own devices. What happened with Peter correlates with what happened to Job. Satan made a request concerning Peter, and God allowed for the request up to a point.
The reason why each one of us stand today in our faith, is due to the keeping power of Jesus Christ. When persecution comes, those who are His, will be empowered by the Holy Spirit. Without that, forget it. If God wants any of us to see our real weakness and dependency on Him, all He would have to do is give a level of permission to Satan, and before our alarm goes off in the morning, we would deny Jesus 1...2...3.....times, before He restores us back. Or, am I wrong? Is there anyone here who can outwit Satan? If Peter couldn't do it, what makes us think any of us can?
That's really a nice touchy feely post, but is it God that forces us to stay with Him, or God that makes us a way for us to choose to stay with Him?
It would seem to me that "Forcing" us to stay with Him goes against our free will.
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 1/25/2010 2:50:21 PM
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Eutychus
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How does "grace" = "force"?
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 1/25/2010 5:11:40 PM
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Saved34
Posts: 867
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RoderickSpode
I believe that the scriptures are clear that if God doesn't keep us, everyone of us would deny Him. Not one of us here is any match for Satan left on our own devices. What happened with Peter correlates with what happened to Job. Satan made a request concerning Peter, and God allowed for the request up to a point.
The reason why each one of us stand today in our faith, is due to the keeping power of Jesus Christ. When persecution comes, those who are His, will be empowered by the Holy Spirit. Without that, forget it. If God wants any of us to see our real weakness and dependency on Him, all He would have to do is give a level of permission to Satan, and before our alarm goes off in the morning, we would deny Jesus 1...2...3.....times, before He restores us back. Or, am I wrong? Is there anyone here who can outwit Satan? If Peter couldn't do it, what makes us think any of us can?
Amen Brother!
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 1/26/2010 2:30:22 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
Actually, I rather think that the "vast majority of Christians" have never been saved to begin with so eternal security would be a moot point for them.
Point taken. So let me modify my statement to say that the vast majority of those who are saved will remain saved. Loss of salvation is a rare occurrence it seems to me. Nevertheless the possibility is real. What of the verses, and they are numerous, where the Lord Jesus says, for example, that He will lose none the Father gave to Him?.....how would you explain them?
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Peter's actions couldn't be more deliberate and purposeful as he denied the Lord three times yet God held him in the "shadow of thy wings" and wouldn't let him ultimately fall.
I agree and this kinda puts the lie to those OSAS folks who jump on Hebrews 6:4 as a proof for OSAS that it is impossible to renew one who has denied Jesus. I'm not sure why anyone would use that verse for either position. They are after all rather difficult verses, although, verse 9 would seem to indicate that it does not refer to those in the church who are actually saved "But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak".
quote:
Obviously there must be some other meaning to that verse. There's no doubt that Peter denied Christ and yet he was allowed to repent. So Hebrews 6:4 must mean something other that what OSAS folks maintain it means. I think it's clear why Peter was "allowed" to repent and Judas was not successful in his repentance. Scripture says that the Lord advocates for those whose sins He has paid for - those for whom He made atonement - those He saved.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 1/26/2010 2:31:24 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Is it possible for God not to be successful?
(2Pe 3:9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Seems that God's will in this area will not come to pass. Sure it will. God will delay the ultimate destruction of this world until He saves all those He elected and predestined unto salvation - "longsuffering to us-ward".
Seems that you are ignoring the "ALL" in the verse.
your point seems to be decidedly Calvinistic, but that should's lead one to ignore parts of a verse.
Thanks
RC
Perhaps you didn't read my response? I actually used the word "all" so obviously I didn't "ignore" it, now did I? I'll highlight it for you.
I think what you're failing to see is that the verse is addressing those who are saved and those who will become saved in the future - hence the Lord's "longsuffering" and John's dismissing that He appears to be remiss in His promise to return.
The Lord's return awaits the completion of His salvation program - when all those He plans to save are saved.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 1/26/2010 8:12:17 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1987
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
What of the verses, and they are numerous, where the Lord Jesus says, for example, that He will lose none the Father gave to Him?.....how would you explain them?
I explain them at face value. Jesus will lose none that the Father has given Him. However, apparently even Jesus occasionally loses some, or at least one, if John 17:12 is true. Judas was given to Jesus just like the other disciples and yet he was lost. So, apparently it IS possible.
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I'm not sure why anyone would use that verse for either position. They are after all rather difficult verses, although, verse 9 would seem to indicate that it does not refer to those in the church who are actually saved "But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak". Yes, I agree.
quote:
I think it's clear why Peter was "allowed" to repent and Judas was not successful in his repentance. Scripture says that the Lord advocates for those whose sins He has paid for - those for whom He made atonement - those He saved. Of course, Judas' way of repenting was to kill himself, not go back to God for forgiveness. Judas is an interesting character though, and while what he did was certainly reprehensible, I don't think it was beyond repentance if he had handled it right.
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greatdivide46
Abberation is how aberrant users of the English language spell aberration. -- Robert Hartwell Fiske
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 1/26/2010 8:35:39 AM
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Eutychus
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quote:
I explain them at face value. Jesus will lose none that the Father has given Him. However, apparently even Jesus occasionally loses some, or at least one, if John 17:12 is true. Judas was given to Jesus just like the other disciples and yet he was lost. So, apparently it IS possible.
The Father gave Judas to Jesus to serve a purpose by fulfilling prophesy, just like with Pharoah was used. There's no evidence that Judas was ever saved. None. In fact, it was noted before he betrayed Jesus that he was a thief, stealing the common funds of Jesus and the 11.
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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 1/26/2010 10:15:03 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
The Lord's return awaits the completion of His salvation program - when all those He plans to save are saved.
I will just humbly disagree with your predestination POV, and leave it at so as not to draw the Ire of the mods.
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 1/26/2010 12:46:34 PM
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RoderickSpode
Posts: 154
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: RoderickSpode
I believe that the scriptures are clear that if God doesn't keep us, everyone of us would deny Him. Not one of us here is any match for Satan left on our own devices. What happened with Peter correlates with what happened to Job. Satan made a request concerning Peter, and God allowed for the request up to a point.
The reason why each one of us stand today in our faith, is due to the keeping power of Jesus Christ. When persecution comes, those who are His, will be empowered by the Holy Spirit. Without that, forget it. If God wants any of us to see our real weakness and dependency on Him, all He would have to do is give a level of permission to Satan, and before our alarm goes off in the morning, we would deny Jesus 1...2...3.....times, before He restores us back. Or, am I wrong? Is there anyone here who can outwit Satan? If Peter couldn't do it, what makes us think any of us can?
That's really a nice touchy feely post, but is it God that forces us to stay with Him, or God that makes us a way for us to choose to stay with Him?
It would seem to me that "Forcing" us to stay with Him goes against our free will.
Thanks
RC
Well, if I were ever to find out from God that I was prevented from any sort of destruction (something I could have done by free-will), I won't protest that any more than finding out my parents refrained me from doing something as a child that would have been harmful.
Concerning free will, how much free-will would you say the Apostle Paul had when converted on the road to Damascus? There may have been somewhat of a choice as to whether or not he wanted to walk away and remain blind; but it wasn't much of an option.
To paint a crude picture, let's say a group of people went to stay in a cabin for a certain period of vacation time somewhere in the Alaskan mountains. The cabin location was so remote, it required a special vehicle that can handle rough terrain, or can be flown in on a small private landing strip. During the time they are in the cabin, they are held hostage by bandits. The bandits purpose to keep them there, but they don't tie them up, or hold a gun to them. Instead, they destroy their means of transportation. They have an option of staying, or to leave on foot. In a way, they are given free will. But is it really free will? Certainly not un-hindered free-will. Paul would have had the realization that he could never go back to business as usual. There could only be at best little stretches of free-will met with obstacles designed to prompt him back onto the right path. We know that the way of the sinner is hard; and I don't see any indication that at some mystical point, God would decide to let go.
The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord, and He delights in his way. Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down; for the Lord upholds him with his hand. - Psalms 38:23
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 1/26/2010 1:31:38 PM
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RoderickSpode
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
Point taken. So let me modify my statement to say that the vast majority of those who are saved will remain saved. Loss of salvation is a rare occurrence it seems to me. Nevertheless the possibility is real.
The definitions of conditional security seem to vary. I haven't read back into this thread, but I'm sure we would see differing opinions. Two common concepts seem to be either one coming to a point of not believing anymore, or an act(s) of a particular sin like denying Jesus before men.
Usually when it's based on actions, salvation appears somewhat difficult to retain, or obtain. Or, at least it's not rock solid secure. Or, the concept of not believing anymore sort of places this particular person on the fringe because one with a spiritual walk full of very real spiritual experiences, all of a sudden not believing anymore would be a rarity. I don't think it's possible. Imagine the Apostle Paul losing his faith/belief after hearing the voice of God, being blinded, and being healed. And why should we suppose that his way of coming into belief is more solid than the true believer who had the least dramatic conversion experience?
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 1/26/2010 1:41:41 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
How does "grace" = "force"?
Grace would allow us to remaiin, Force would of course require us to remain.
Grace sets the way for God's will and man's will to be done.
Force would be constraint to keep one where they did not want to remain.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 1/26/2010 1:48:24 PM
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Saved34
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quote:
However, apparently even Jesus occasionally loses some You're willing to go that far to disprove OSAS? Somebody is wrong in this here scenario. Either it's you or it's our Lord. I think I'll side with the Lord on this one.
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2Ti 2:3 Join me in suffering like a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:4 No one serving in the military gets mixed up in civilian matters, for his aim is to please his commanding officer.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 1/26/2010 1:49:08 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 9189
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
How does "grace" = "force"?
Grace would allow us to remaiin, Force would of course require us to remain.
Grace sets the way for God's will and man's will to be done.
Force would be constraint to keep one where they did not want to remain.
Thanks
RC
My understanding (and personal attitude) is that anyone born again, redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, indwelt by God the Holy Spirit, and made a joint heir with Christ would never want to leave. I just can't see a down-side to remaining.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 1/26/2010 1:56:15 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RoderickSpode
Well, if I were ever to find out from God that I was prevented from any sort of destruction (something I could have done by free-will), I won't protest that any more than finding out my parents refrained me from doing something as a child that would have been harmful.
Again a nice touchy feely reasonable line of thinking. But in reality some children grow up to hate their parents and even kill then.
And Scripture teaches that some will fall away from Grace, no matter how wonderfuf, protective, and helpful Grace may be.
quote:
Concerning free will, how much free-will would you say the Apostle Paul had when converted on the road to Damascus? There may have been somewhat of a choice as to whether or not he wanted to walk away and remain blind; but it wasn't much of an option.
quote:
(Act 9:17) And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
(Act 9:18) And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
(Act 9:19) And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
(Act 9:20) And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
I maintain that Paul could have told Ananias to take a hike, or not listened to the diciples, and continued on his way of hating Christians.
And as for me I am glad that he did not turn down God's grace, but excerised his faith to believe on Jesus Christ.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 1/26/2010 1:59:42 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
How does "grace" = "force"?
Grace would allow us to remaiin, Force would of course require us to remain.
Grace sets the way for God's will and man's will to be done.
Force would be constraint to keep one where they did not want to remain.
Thanks
RC
My understanding (and personal attitude) is that anyone born again, redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, indwelt by God the Holy Spirit, and made a joint heir with Christ would never want to leave. I just can't see a down-side to remaining.
I agree with you on this, and could not understand how someone could walk away, but Scripture seems to say that it will happen.
I lean more towards those that leave were never there; but Scripture seems to say different.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 1/26/2010 6:14:33 PM
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RoderickSpode
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Again a nice touchy feely reasonable line of thinking. But in reality some children grow up to hate their parents and even kill then.
And Scripture teaches that some will fall away from Grace, no matter how wonderfuf, protective, and helpful Grace may be.
As far as the your reference to rebellious children, that's beside the point. No matter how rebellious a child is, they are under the guidance or rulership of the parents, up to a certain age. Believers are bought by a price, and there's no age limit to where we graduate to independance from God.
quote:
(Act 9:17) And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
(Act 9:18) And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
(Act 9:19) And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
(Act 9:20) And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
I maintain that Paul could have told Ananias to take a hike, or not listened to the diciples, and continued on his way of hating Christians.
And as for me I am glad that he did not turn down God's grace, but excerised his faith to believe on Jesus Christ.
Thanks
RC
Again, this is beside the point. I'm not disputing Paul's free-will in making an ultimate decision on whether to follow Jesus. My point is, he wasn't merely handed a gospel tract. It wasn't free will as the world views free will. Paul was actually trembling with fear. And Jesus pretty much told him what to do. In light of this contrast of Paul's free will which perhaps would be to accept a state of physical blindness, and the world's view of free-will which is not being interfered with, once someone is bought with a price, they become His property.
As far as falling from grace, in a sense Peter fell away. Not from grace, but there's no indication that after the cock crowed, he repented to the extent of making a public proclamation that he was a disciple of Jesus. He went back to fishing, and returned to Christ when Christ came for him/them.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 1/26/2010 7:15:00 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RoderickSpode
I'm not disputing Paul's free-will in making an ultimate decision on whether to follow Jesus.
Well I am glad we agree that Paul had the free will to accept or reject Christ. Are you maintain that Paul forfeifed that free will when he made that decision, and could not have fell from the faith at a later date.
My point is, he wasn't merely handed a gospel tract. It wasn't free will as the world views free will. Paul was actually trembling with fear.
Actually in over 46 years of ministry I have never seen a person accept Christ from simply reading a tract someone handed them. The vast majority are going through a life crises surely as difficult as Paul was, or make the decision after months or years of being taught the Gospel.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 1/26/2010 7:57:52 PM
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RoderickSpode
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved34
quote:
However, apparently even Jesus occasionally loses some You're willing to go that far to disprove OSAS? Somebody is wrong in this here scenario. Either it's you or it's our Lord. I think I'll side with the Lord on this one.
That's for sure Saved34!
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 1/26/2010 8:24:41 PM
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RoderickSpode
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Well I am glad we agree that Paul had the free will to accept or reject Christ. Are you maintain that Paul forfeifed that free will when he made that decision, and could not have fell from the faith at a later date.
I think you may be asking the wrong question. We know that there's obviously spiritual warfare. Can someone be filled with the Holy Spirit, as all believers are, want to leave, depart from, denounce the faith apart from an act of Satan (as happened with Peter)? And can we hold to the scripture pertaining to nothing being able to separate us from the love of God, which includes the act of principalities? When Christ said that He had lost none save the son of perdition, He wasn't speaking as a politician who can lose one (lose their voters in Ohio, etc.) by lack of persuasion or being non-pleasing.
All we need do is look at how Jesus acted towards His disciples. He was able to identify each disciple according to where they would spend eternity. When he said that there was a mansion available in Heaven, He meant that's where they would reside. In fact, Thomas may not have even have been a believer yet as we can see from his response when seeing Jesus after the resurrection. And yet, Jesus treated him as one of His even if this was the case. Think about it. Let's say one of the 12 believing saved disciples were to lose their salvation at some point. How would Jesus have responded to him? He told Peter what would happen in the future. How he would deny Him, and how he would die. If Peter's salvation was secure as it apparently was, why would we be any different?
As far as falling away from grace, I'm sure it's been mentioned before in this thread concerning the book of Hebrews. Tasting of the Holy Spirit doesn't necessarily mean the same thing as being filled with the Holy Spirit (if at all). Stephen's words to those who persecuted him was that they, like their fathers, resisted the Holy Spirit. So obviously one can have an interaction with the Holy Spirit, and not be born again.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 1/26/2010 9:28:01 PM
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lightbeamrider
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: RoderickSpode
I believe that the scriptures are clear that if God doesn't keep us, everyone of us would deny Him. Not one of us here is any match for Satan left on our own devices. What happened with Peter correlates with what happened to Job. Satan made a request concerning Peter, and God allowed for the request up to a point.
The reason why each one of us stand today in our faith, is due to the keeping power of Jesus Christ. When persecution comes, those who are His, will be empowered by the Holy Spirit. Without that, forget it. If God wants any of us to see our real weakness and dependency on Him, all He would have to do is give a level of permission to Satan, and before our alarm goes off in the morning, we would deny Jesus 1...2...3.....times, before He restores us back. Or, am I wrong? Is there anyone here who can outwit Satan? If Peter couldn't do it, what makes us think any of us can?
That's really a nice touchy feely post, but is it God that forces us to stay with Him, or God that makes us a way for us to choose to stay with Him?
It would seem to me that "Forcing" us to stay with Him goes against our free will.
Thanks
RC
Tell it to Jonah. Jonah using his free will went the opposite way from Ninevah. If i were to write a book i would call it the free will of Jonah. The fate of Mary,, John the Baptist, and Judas was all determined hundreds of years before they existed. Where was their free will? Your fate is determined also. To be spiritually dead is to be diabolically alive. The dead cannot in and of themselves choose life anymore than a light bulb can turn itself on without electricity, the socket, and the switch. We who were spiritually dead cannot come to Christ in and of ourselves unless Christ our Savior flips the switch and liberates us from our spiritually dead state to life. At the command of Jesus. "Lazarus come forth" Lazarus came back from the dead. Free will had nothing to do with it. Besides only pre fall Adam had free will in that he had both the ability to sin and the ability to not sin. Unsaved man has no natural ability to live a sinless life. He cannot not sin.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 1/27/2010 8:01:05 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1987
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Coffee County, Alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
The Father gave Judas to Jesus to serve a purpose by fulfilling prophesy, just like with Pharoah was used. There's no evidence that Judas was ever saved. None. In fact, it was noted before he betrayed Jesus that he was a thief, stealing the common funds of Jesus and the 11.
I agree with all that you've said here. I'm just not so sure that Judas was never saved. I mean he was one of the twelve. He ostensibly did everything they did, i.e., perform miracles, cast out demons, etc. Yes, he was stealing from the treasury, but surely you're not saying that Christians never sin. I'm not saying he was saved, I'm just not convinced that he wasn't. And I don't think his one betrayal, while certainly fulfilling prophecy, was beyond redemption any more than Peter's numerous denials were.
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greatdivide46
Abberation is how aberrant users of the English language spell aberration. -- Robert Hartwell Fiske
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 1/27/2010 8:07:48 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1987
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Coffee County, Alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved34
quote:
However, apparently even Jesus occasionally loses some You're willing to go that far to disprove OSAS? Somebody is wrong in this here scenario. Either it's you or it's our Lord. I think I'll side with the Lord on this one.
Hey, I didn't make this up. Jesus, Himself, said He lost Judas (see John 17:12). Admittedly, He says it was to fulfill scripture, but Judas was still lost (Jesus own word).
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greatdivide46
Abberation is how aberrant users of the English language spell aberration. -- Robert Hartwell Fiske
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 1/28/2010 2:12:10 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5352
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
What of the verses, and they are numerous, where the Lord Jesus says, for example, that He will lose none the Father gave to Him?.....how would you explain them?
I explain them at face value. Jesus will lose none that the Father has given Him. However, apparently even Jesus occasionally loses some, or at least one, if John 17:12 is true. Judas was given to Jesus just like the other disciples and yet he was lost. So, apparently it IS possible. Judas was not "given" in the sense of becoming a child of God as were the other Apostles. Nor, did the Lord "lose" Judas as if He were "unable" to keep him. His destiny had already been written - he would never become saved - we see this much from the OT prophecies and from the words of the Lord in John 13:18 "I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me."
From what you're saying, it seems like you think it's possible for God to fail at something, i.e., the Lord Jesus "failed" when Judas was lost. The Lord Jesus Christ is eternal God, He cannot fail.
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I think it's clear why Peter was "allowed" to repent and Judas was not successful in his repentance. Scripture says that the Lord advocates for those whose sins He has paid for - those for whom He made atonement - those He saved. Of course, Judas' way of repenting was to kill himself, not go back to God for forgiveness. Judas is an interesting character though, and while what he did was certainly reprehensible, I don't think it was beyond repentance if he had handled it right. I don't think it was Judas' intention that the Lord would be killed...sort of like things got out of hand and his guilt just overwhelmed him. I agree this wouldn't be an "unforgiveable sin", however, the Lord said in Mark 14:21, before Judas even betrayed Him "...but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born."
God knew the heart of Judas and chose him to be the one to betray the Lord. Even though Judas made a choice to do what he did from a "deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked:" unregenerated heart, it happened just as God planned.
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beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 1/28/2010 8:05:30 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1987
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Coffee County, Alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Judas was not "given" in the sense of becoming a child of God as were the other Apostles. Nor, did the Lord "lose" Judas as if He were "unable" to keep him. His destiny had already been written - he would never become saved - we see this much from the OT prophecies and from the words of the Lord in John 13:18 "I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me." So did Judas not perform miracles, cast out demons, etc., like the other Apostles? Even though he was there to fulfill prophecy, I don't believe Jesus treated him any different than He did the other Apostles. And Jesus Himself said in John 17:12 that He did not lose any that the Father had given Him except Judas. I do agree, though, that Jesus didn't lose Judas because He was unable to keep him. It was in order to fulfill Scripture
quote:
From what you're saying, it seems like you think it's possible for God to fail at something, i.e., the Lord Jesus "failed" when Judas was lost. The Lord Jesus Christ is eternal God, He cannot fail. Jesus' loss of Judas was not a matter of failure. It was a matter of fulfilling Scripture as John 17:12 clearly states and which I've drawn attention to several times, now.
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greatdivide46
Abberation is how aberrant users of the English language spell aberration. -- Robert Hartwell Fiske
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